Episode #259 – How to Avoid Nightmare Clients

In this episode, I’m gonna teach you 5 simple steps on how to design your client relationships so you don’t have clients who make you want to pull out your hair in frustration. 

It all comes down to DESIGNING. 

ONE HOUR of discussing expectations for your roles will save you hours of dealing with the bullshit that comes up with angry clients. 

So, sit down with them, cut the crap, and get it all out on the table!

Tune in to get the step-by-step approach to turning a NIGHTMARE client into a DREAM client.

Xo,
Sari

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”Designing in the H2H world is something that once you start doing it, you can't stop doing it. Everything comes down to design. I have people come and say, ‘This co-counsel relationship just didn't end up being the way that I wanted it to.’ And my first question is always, ‘What was your design?’ And oftentimes I will hear, ‘We didn't have one.’ So, designing is something that you do ahead of time to ward off problems down the road. And once you start doing this, you are going to find that absolutely everything gets easier.”

sari de la motte

EPISODE 259 TRANSCRIPTION

Well, welcome everybody. I am back from Finland. I had a great time while I was away. Missed you all, but I'm glad to be back here and talking with you.

So it's August. Can you believe it is fucking August? That's just crazy. I hope wherever you are, it's not too warm. But I always feel like the first of the year is in September. I don't know if that's from my years of being a teacher, but September just feels like the first of the year. And so I was thinking about this and how to kind of start off the first of the year, which is for me again, is September.

I was thinking about how you guys can start working differently with your clients. Because what I don't want you to have are these nightmare relationships with your clients, which then affects everything. It affects your day to day. And so today we're going to talk about how to avoid that.

Before we do that though, I just want to let you know about some really, really cool stuff that's coming up.

So, first cool thing is that we are going to be opening the H2H Playground September 17th. So if you want to go to sariswears.com/play and get yourself on the wait list, you'll be the first to know when we open The Crew. And this time we are opening with a brand new course just for our new members to get them going in the membership before they actually get thrown in with all the other fools that are already in there- who you know I love you.

Second, we are also going to be doing another Voir Dire virtual training, which is an all-day training on September 19th.

So, if you want to come and learn Voir Dire with me, you're going to bring a case and we're going to work it up from beginning to end. That is on September 19th. More details to come shortly.

We also have, if you're in The Crew and if you join in September you will be in the Crew, we have a November retreat. We are going to Scottsdale. We only have a limited number of seats.

We're going to stay in a 17,000 square foot house and we're going to have resonant conversations all fucking weekend with a pool, a lazy river, a hidden bar and a private chef. Oh my god, y'all. We're going to bring in CTI coaches. It is going to just be off the hook!

You want to come hang out with me?

You got to be in The Crew first, and then you got to grab one of these seats, if they're even open at this recording. I'm not sure if we even have any more open, but get in The Crew. If you're in The Crew, go sign up for that resonant conversations weekend.

And then again, if you're in The Crew, we also have our Mindset Mastery 9-Month Program starting on September 10th. So if you're listening and you're already in The Crew, you want to make sure that you sign up for that.

Okay, so I hear y'all complaining about your clients and I want to help you because here's the bad news.

One of the reasons, if not the main reason why you have a nightmare client is because of you.

It's your fault. And that's okay.

That's why you're listening today- it's to figure out how to not have this happen again.

So what we're going to talk about today, and I've talked about this in the past in at least in one podcast episode, is the concept of designing. But, we're going to talk about it primarily in terms of the context of clients.

All right. You spend a lot of time with clients. And if that relationship is not good, then nothing else is good.

So when we talk about designing in a coaching format, what we say is, we design with people ahead of something so that we don't have problems down the road.

Meaning we get together, if it's a coaching client, and we start by asking about roles, their expectations, what our expectations are. We get it all out on the table before we get into a coaching relationship so that it doesn't feel top down. And that's why we also do it, as you know, the designed alliance with our jurors. We don't want them to feel, because they already feel that they're very trapped and they don't have a choice and they have to be there and all of the things.

So, one of the first things that we do in trial is design with them about how we want this to be or have them have more say. But in order to do that, we're going to need to have this conversation.

So we're designing with the jurors, and today we're going to talk about how we design with our clients.

Designing in the H2H world is something that once you start doing it, you can't stop doing it. Everything comes down to design. I have people come and say, "This co-counsel relationship just didn't end up being the way that I wanted it to." And my first question is always, "What was your design?" And oftentimes I will hear, "We didn't have one."

So designing is something that you do ahead of time to ward off problems down the road. And once you start doing this, you are going to find that absolutely everything gets easier.

All right? So, I'm going to take you through five steps today to design with your clients (your plaintiffs) so that you don't end up with a nightmare client.

Now, all of this is to say, the caveat is that we're choosing a client off the bat that isn't someone that's going to make our life miserable. And we can't always know that, but most of the time we do know the people we probably shouldn't be working with. So, I'm going to assume for the purpose of today's episode that the client that you're taking on is, at face value, a normal person that you could have a relationship with. Okay?

All right, step number one.

The first question you need to ask yourself is, before we even think about actual clients, how do you want that relationship to feel? In general, how do you want the relationship to feel with your clients?

Some answers that I have gotten when I'm working with my clients on helping them design with their clients, is they want it to feel respectful.

They want it to feel equal.

They want it to feel easy.

They want it to feel like we're on the same team, like we're aligned, like we want the same things.

We're on the same side. And as y'all know, sometimes it feels like you two are on opposing sides, and that's not how we want it to feel with our clients.

So if you're following along, hopefully not if you're driving, the first exercise (you can pause the podcast right now, as long as you come back. I want you to come back) is to ask yourself, how do I want this relationship to feel?

Now, the second half of question number one is, if I want this relationship to feel respectful, aligned and like we're on the same side, the question then becomes how do I have to be in order for that to happen? And how does my client have to be?

And this can actually be something you can do with your client, but I want you to do it with yourself first. I want you to answer some of these questions first. When you're actually sitting down with your client, you can also do this with them.

How do we want this relationship to feel? Okay, if we want the relationship to feel that way, what are some ways of being?

So you might say something first to yourself, but then when you're doing it with your client, "Well, I wanted us to feel calm. I want us to both be patient with each other. I want there to be trust. I want us to be transparent." Those are some ways that we have to be if we want to have this relationship that is aligned, respectful and feels like we're on the same team.

So, that's number one, which has two parts. So how do I want this relationship to feel? And knowing I want it to feel that way, how do I have to be? Again, I want you to do that for yourself first, but actually do this with your client when you sit down with them, right?

All right, the second step is now discussion of your roles.

This is really important. So now you're going to discuss what your role is as the trial attorney and what their role is as the client. And what you always want to start with is asking them what they think those two roles are. You are going to hear some really amazing stuff here.

So I always ask my clients when they first work with me, "What do you think your role is in our relationship as coach and client?" And they'll say, "Well, I think my role is to listen to your advice, to show up on time and to do the work and all the things." And I said, "Well, what do you think my role is?" And they'll tell me what they think my role is.

One time I had a client say, "Well, I think your role is to tell me what to do, and I think my role is to do it, and if I don't, I get in trouble." Wouldn't that be good information for you to have beforehand if they had some crazy idea of what they thought your role was? "Well, your role is to get me $1 billion, and my role is to call you every day and ask when you got my $1 billion." That would be good information to have, would it not, in the design conversation? Because I'm assuming that's not how most of you work.

So, it's a great time to really flesh out what they think and how they think this is going to work or what they even hope for how this is going to work.And then you say, "Well, my view or my expectation of you is this and my role is that." And if there's misalignment there, that's a great time to find out before you're way into your relationship with this person.

So that's that second piece, discussion of roles. What do you think my role is? What do you think your role is? And then you say, "Well, my expectation of your role is X and my expectation of my role is Y." And you work it out.

Now, if you're still on the same page at that point, number three is when you go into the detailed part of your design.

So beforehand (not with your client), you're going to want to think of all of the things that have gone wrong with clients. And you're going to find that there are some things that go wrong with nearly every client, over many years. You've always had this particular problem with clients. And you want to think about things that could go wrong, maybe that won't go wrong, but that could go wrong. So some examples of things that you could write on this list are, how do you handle calls? Are they allowed to have your cell phone? If not, why not? Will you accept their call anytime they call the office?

Mallory Peacock, one great trial attorney in Texas, she talks about how she designs with her clients right from the very beginning "You will not get my cell phone because I need the rest and relaxation," I don't know if she says that, but this is true. "I'm outside of the office and to be the best lawyer I can be and that time is dedicated to my family and to myself. And I will also not accept any unscheduled phone calls." And then she tells them why.

She says, "Because if I were to accept phone calls, what that does is that interrupts the work that I'm doing on someone else's case. If I were to answer your phone call and I'm working on someone else's case, I'm taking time away from their case to talk to you about yours. Now, would you like me to take a phone call when I'm working on your case from someone else?" And of course everyone's like, "No, I want you working on my case." "Well, that's why I have that rule." Right?

"Not to mention," she says, "I don't have all the details in front of me. If you just happen to call at a three o'clock on a Wednesday, I didn't know you were calling. I don't have all the details in front of me. I will not be able to give you the allotted amount of time and the time of a dedication that you'd want."

So, when we schedule phone calls, that is when we'll have phone calls. She doesn't wait until they call and aren't able to reach her and then get pissed off to tell them that. She tells them that from the beginning. That is a design. Now, I'm not saying that needs to be your design. I think it's a fantastic design by the way. But I'm saying the whole point of a design has to be ahead of time, before the problem arises.

All right. Other things that you can design with your clients: documents.

I hear this all the time. "I need certain documents from my client and they don't get them to me, and I have to run them down." I was just talking to a client about this the other day and I said, "Well, one of the things you can do is say when you're designing, talk about phone calls and you can say, 'Okay, one thing that's going to be the make or break here is that I'm going to need certain documents from you. When I ask for certain documents, you will have,' (and you get to decide), 'two weeks, 30 days, whatever, to get those to me. If I do not receive those within that timeframe, I will close your file.'" I said, "Are you willing to do that?" She said, "Hell yeah." I'm like, "Great."

So that's clear. So you design it ahead of time, and then you put it in the document request as well so they get a reminder. "If I don't get this back within 30 days," and even put the date, "if I don't get this back by June 15th, I'm going to have to close your file." And you explain why, "because I cannot spend the time tracking down your file. I have many clients and I want this to be easy and I want this to be efficient. That is one of my rules. Do you agree? Yes or no?" And they can say, "Yes, I agree." So when that happens, they've already agreed ahead of time that this is how you do business.

Now, one of the things that I say is oftentimes, when we send things electronically, they get lost. So if you really want to make sure that you get the documents you need, you might want to send them snail mail with a postage paid return and they can just sign them or fill them in or whatever and put them back in the mail. Somehow sometimes having that tactile thing makes all the difference.

All right. Other things that I've heard. Clients consistently want updates.

They want to talk to you all of the time, and when they're not hearing from you, they think you're not working on their case and you absolutely have to design ahead of time about this.

So you're designing and you're saying, "Listen, the average trial case has a two to three year lifespan. It takes a long time for us to either get to settlement or to trial. Therefore, there's going to be quiet periods. So there will be times that you're not going to hear from me. That doesn't mean things aren't moving. It just means I don't have any news." And then you can choose to design with them.

Now, some clients are fine with that and they just know when there's news, I will contact them. Other clients prefer to have regular check-ins. So if you prefer to have regular check-ins, I am willing to meet with you, and then you decide. Once a month, once a week, every six weeks, you get to decide. There's no right or wrong here, but design that shit ahead of time.

Other people start listening to other people in their lives and then they come back to me and they go, "Well, uncle Joey said that you should be doing this." Or, "Aunt Sarah said in her lawsuit that her lawyer did this.". If you don't want to hear any of that shit, design that ahead of time. "Once I become your lawyer, I am not going to leave room for hearing about other people's legal theories. You hired me because I'm an expert in this field and we need to agree ahead of time that the strategy that I'm going to use is the best for your case based on my experience. Do you agree?"

You're designing it ahead of time.

You need to design around the money that they think their case is worth, right? A lot of people come in, they're like, "This is a $10 million case," and you know it's $500,000. That needs to be designed in the beginning. And if you're not sure and something where you're like, "I got to dig into this case," you design around that. But once I do, based on my level of experience and expertise, I am the last person who gets to say how much this case is worth.

You need to design around how or when you decide to settle versus going to trial. You to need to design around "If you ever threaten, I don't expect this would happen, but if there's any kind of verbal or written threats, I immediately close your case. I will not put up with that and that includes my staff," or whatever.

I want you to think about all of the ways this has gone wrong in the past and design that shit ahead of time.

Even better is if you have all of this in writing, and when you're done with this conversation, you go ahead and have them initial it and sign it and you initial and sign it too. Even better.

All right. The fourth thing is then you decide how are you going to deal with conflict.

So you can say, "Now, it looks like we've discussed all of the things that could go wrong. But sometimes there are things that we can't even anticipate that we may not agree on. How would you like to handle conflict when that arises? Are you a phone person? Are you an email person?" I mean, you can design this a variety of ways. You can say, "When conflict arises, I'm the ... " and you can decide this because it's your business, "I will decide how that goes." I wouldn't suggest that, but it's up to you how you want to deal with that. But I want you to have one final conversation on how do we want to deal with conflict?

And then finally, once you have this all done, I want you to celebrate it.

I want you to say, "Look at us. Thank you for taking," (and this should probably take an hour to 90 minutes) "Thank you for taking the time to go through this step-by-step, because this is such a long process. We're going to get to know each other really well. ". You might design around private things and all the things. "Again, I really want to take the time to design our relationship ahead of time so that we don't fall into a lot of the pitfalls that I've, frankly, fallen into as a younger lawyer, and now I've learned my lesson. So thank you so much for putting the time into this. I think this is going to make a great relationship." And you have a drink or a cup of coffee or shake hands or whatever, but I want you to take that time to really acknowledge your client and thank them for going through the process with you.

Now, I know that you're thinking, "Oh my God, I don't have 60 minutes to 90 minutes to deal with this."

But I'm telling you, it's going to cost you 10 times more time if you do not design ahead of time to deal with all the bullshit that comes up like angry clients, constant requests for information and trying to track them down. I'm telling you, if you put the time in at the beginning, it's going to save you so much time during the process.

So, there's your five steps for how to avoid having future nightmare clients by designing with them ahead of time how this process is going to go. I hope that's helpful. Talk soon.

Have you ever wished that you knew what the jury was thinking? Well, grab a pen and paper because I'm about to give you instant access to a free training I created for plaintiff trial attorneys called Three Powerful Strategies to Help You Read a Juror's Mind. It's going to help you to understand what the jury is thinking, so you'll feel confident to trust them and yourself in the courtroom.

Ready for the address? Go to sariswears.com/jury. Enjoy.