Sari Swears Podcast: Do You Want to Quit Practicing Law?

Have YOU ever thought:

“I don’t think I want to do this anymore.”

Not forever.

Not dramatically.

Just… quietly, in the back of your mind.

In this week’s episode, I sat down with Coach K to talk about why so many trial attorneys hit this exact point.

And no, you’re not alone. 😉

What we’ve seen time and time again is this:

It’s not that you actually want to quit… It’s that you can’t keep doing it the way you’ve been doing it.

Doing everything yourself.

Carrying too much.

Feeling stuck in a system that’s draining you.

And here’s the shift…

That moment where you start questioning everything?

That’s not the end.

It’s the turning point.

Inside the episode, Coach K and I break down:

Why this feeling is so common for trial attorneys (even my Masterminds)
The problem in tackling everything alone
And how to shift out of this mindset

If you've been on the edge of quitting, this one is for you.

Love,
Sari

➡️Listen on Spotify

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“I don’t think I want to be a trial attorney anymore… or it’s, ‘I don’t know, I might be crazy for saying this, but I’ve been wondering if I even want to do this anymore.’ We hear that all the time. And out of all the hundreds of trial attorneys we’ve worked with… almost none of them actually quit.”
coach k

transcription

Sari de la Motte:

So collaborate, collaborate, collaborate. Even just with a trial consultant, I mean, there's so many times that I'm working one-on-one with the client, it's just the two of us. And they're like, "Oh my God, that's so brilliant." I'm like, "No, we're brilliant. I couldn't do this by myself. You couldn't do it by yourself. But together, we're just like ping, ping, ping, and we just come with the greatest stuff. And nearly all of my clients leave a consulting session going, "Oh my gosh, I have so many ideas. I can't even like ... 90 minutes is gone already?" They can't believe it."

You're listening to Sari Swears on the Sari Swears podcast.

Welcome everyone to another episode of Sari Swears. I'm back with Coach K, because as we all know, he's obsessed with me.

Coach Kevin:

Yep.

Sari de la Motte:

Welcome Coach K.

Coach Kevin:

Thank you.

Sari de la Motte:

We just came back from New York City.

Coach Kevin:

Yes, we did. And it fucking was awesome.

Sari de la Motte:

You can look at me. They're not actually there. I mean, maybe-

Coach Kevin:

I know, but I love to look at them. Plus, I love to look at the camera. I love to break the ... Was it the third wall, or the fourth wall?

Sari de la Motte:

Fourth wall, I think, is what it's called.

Coach Kevin:

Okay.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah.

Coach Kevin:

I love it. It's my favorite.

Sari de la Motte:

Ooh, speaking of that, let's tell everybody who we saw on Broadway. In row F, like-

Coach Kevin:

In his boxers.

Sari de la Motte:

In his boxers because he took his fucking pants off.

Coach Kevin:

I know, which I was not expecting.

Sari de la Motte:

I know. You felt a little uncomfortable.

Coach Kevin:

I did. I thought I was going to smell something.

Sari de la Motte:

Oh, that's terrible. It's Nathan fucking Lane. You wouldn't smell anything. He's a gay man. He's probably cleaner than you.

Coach Kevin:

I know. I was just a little uncomfortable. I mean, we were so close.

Sari de la Motte:

Okay, can we actually tell them what the deal is before?

Coach Kevin:

Death of a salesman.

Sari de la Motte:

Death of a salesman. Yes. Nathan Lane and Laurie Metcalf on Broadway. It was incredible. I've never seen a Broadway play.

Coach Kevin:

I don't think I have either.

Sari de la Motte:

I've always seen musicals.

Coach Kevin:

It's always been musicals.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah.

Coach Kevin:

Yeah.

Sari de la Motte:

And we also saw Hamilton.

Coach Kevin:

Which was amazing.

Sari de la Motte:

Amazing.

Coach Kevin:

Oh my God. It was amazing.

Sari de la Motte:

My gosh. We've seen it here in Portland, but just-

Coach Kevin:

We love Portland, but oh, there's nothing like Broadway.

Sari de la Motte:

There was no words for Hamilton on fucking Broadway. We also saw Wicked, which this is our sixth or seventh time, and we're both-

Coach Kevin:

It's great. We were kind of meh with it.

Sari de la Motte:

And we love the movies and we're kind of like, "We're kind of done with Wicked."

Coach Kevin:

Yeah. I think we've seen Wicked enough for now.

Sari de la Motte:

For now.

Coach Kevin:

Give it some time.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah. Give it some time. But I'm obsessed with Hamilton. It's still in my brain. I almost can't sleep. It's like you get that brainworm?

Coach Kevin:

Mm-hmm.

Sari de la Motte:

Anyways, everyone's like, "Okay-"

Coach Kevin:

Enough with this. Can you move along with the episode?

Sari de la Motte:

"... what are you going to be talking about?" Yeah. So we are here to talk about the big issue, one of the top issues I would say that drives trial attorneys to coaching. And the reason I thought about this particular topic is in our leadership meeting, you happen to say about a sample session or something that you had just done, "Oh, I hope they go with me because they said the thing that I hear all the time." And it just kind of rang my brain to say, "You do hear this all the time." And so I thought we should talk about it. So what is the thing that brings a lot of attorneys to you that maybe our listeners might be surprised to hear is a big issue of why they're coming and seeking out a coach?

Coach Kevin:

"I don't think I want to be a trial attorney anymore."

Sari de la Motte:

Ah, yes. And so you hear that a lot, you say.

Coach Kevin:

Yeah. Or it's, "I don't know, I might be crazy for saying this, but I've been wondering if I even want to do this anymore." Things like that.

Sari de la Motte:

Yes. Yes. So if you are listening or watching, and this is something that you have said to yourself or thought to yourself in the past, this episode is for you, because we're going to get into why this is and what is actually underneath that. And of course we're going to give you some ways to solve this problem. So tell me a little bit more about why you think this is happening or why you hear this so much. Because you mentioned to me that out of all the hundreds of trial attorneys that you've actually worked with, that at least 60% of them have said this on some level to you, either at the beginning or somewhere in the coaching process. And out of those hundreds of trial attorneys, how many have actually quit and been like, "I'm done being a trial attorney?"

Coach Kevin:

One.

Sari de la Motte:

One.

Coach Kevin:

One. One. And they didn't even want to be a trial attorney to begin with. We figured that out in coaching. They're doing something completely different now.

Sari de la Motte:

And happy?

Coach Kevin:

Very happy.

Sari de la Motte:

Oh, I love that.

Coach Kevin:

Mm-hmm.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah. We love working with trial attorneys, and we love trial law, but if that's not for you, it's not for you for sure. I think-

Coach Kevin:

The other one I hear a lot is the fear of malpractice, which I've never had a client that had any, that ever happened to them. But they all fear that it's going to happen.

Sari de la Motte:

I've had clients, many, who've actually ... I've had so many clients who practice malpractice. No, who's had a claim of malpractice, but never gone anywhere.

Coach Kevin:

It never sticks.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah. Absolutely, mm-hmm.

Coach Kevin:

It never sticks.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah. So that's a big one too.

Coach Kevin:

Tools of the defense, right?

Sari de la Motte:

Right. But we were talking about ... And I think that actually does lend itself to the why they want to quit-

Sari de la Motte:

Okay. So what would you say is the number one reason why people are saying they want to quit being a trial attorney?

Coach Kevin:

They're burned out.

Sari de la Motte:

They're burned out.

Coach Kevin:

Yeah.

Sari de la Motte:

Why are they burned out? What are you talking about in coaching?

Coach Kevin:

Well, so many times we're talking about they're just doing so much.

Sari de la Motte:

Yes.

Coach Kevin:

They're just so mired in so much.

Sari de la Motte:

Discovery, paperwork. They're looking at creating motions. All of the things. And the actual truth is they're doing too much.

Coach Kevin:

Oh, yeah.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah. So we're going to talk about that in a minute. You also mentioned earlier when we were talking, before we started recording, that they also feel trapped. Say a little bit more about that.

Coach Kevin:

Well, yeah. They feel trapped because they started doing this, and they've got this whole business that they have to run. And they can't leave it. How could you leave something like that? And what else are they going to do? Really, what else are you going to do?

Sari de la Motte:

So in addition to feeling like they want to quit, they also feel like they can't quit.

Coach Kevin:

They can't quit.

Sari de la Motte:

What does that lead to?

Coach Kevin:

Well, I mean, it leads to this black and white thinking that they have. Yeah, they get into this black and white place like stare, go, or figure it out, push through, or take off. There's no in-between.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah. I don't think that anybody actually does take off. And I think what ends up happening is because they feel stuck, that actually adds to their distress, I guess is the word that I'm using. I'm thinking about my coach who always says anytime I'm like, "I'm just so stuck." She's like, "Sari, you are never stuck." That's not a thing. There's always a choice. And that's one thing that we talk about a lot in coaching, is, where's the choice? We tend to get into the black and white thinking.

So in addition to feeling burned out, especially those who own their own businesses, or even the ones who don't, wouldn't you say that they also feel trapped? They're like, "I spent all this time and money to become a trial attorney. I can leave and go somewhere else, but it's just going to be the same."

Coach Kevin:

Yeah. And most of our clients have been doing this for at least 15 years. So what are you going to do? You're just going to walk away from that? No.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's definitely a feeling of trappedness.

Coach Kevin:

Yeah, and when it's polarized and it's black and white, that's where stuckness comes from, because you know there's no other choices. There's this or that.

Sari de la Motte:

Right. This is the life of a lawyer life. I hear that a lot too. "This is just how it is."

Coach Kevin:

"This is how it is."

Sari de la Motte:

"This is how it is being a lawyer."

Coach Kevin:

"I'm going to be ground out to a nub. And look at every other lawyer. This is the way we are. This is the culture."

Sari de la Motte:

This is the culture. Exactly. Another thing that we were talking about is why they want to quit, is not only the burnout, but this isn't what they thought it was going to be. And so I think a lot of trial attorneys, when they get into trial law are thinking it's going to be Law & Order or-

Coach Kevin:

Yeah, it's not sexy.

Sari de la Motte:

Right? It's not sexy when it comes up, because you're spending so little time in trial that it's not what you got into it for. Do you hear that a lot?

Coach Kevin:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I mean, when they come to us, and they start practicing, and they're doing the trial thing when they're not in trial, that's what helps them see outside of those weeds. Because I mean, if you're only going to be in trial like three times a year at most, then why not practice the things, and it's like you're in trial.

Sari de la Motte:

Yes. Yes. Okay. Also, they're not where they think they should be. This is a big one. I've heard this quite a bit with my clients as well, is that how they feel, because most of our clients are between the age of 40 and 60, you were saying there's like a sweet spot, right around 53 to 58, right?

Coach Kevin:

55 is like the ...

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah. That's like where they're really like, "Oh my gosh, I didn't become the millionaire, billionaire with the plane and the private chef and all the things that a lot of people get into plaintiff law for, and I'm not where I need to be." So how does that lead to them wanting to quit? How do you see that kind of show up in your practice?

Coach Kevin:

Well, I mean, if we just talked about the cultures a certain way, and then you're not where you're supposed to be, then why not just give up? Because everybody else is ... There's all these greats out there. There's all these people that have all these results. Maybe you lost a couple trials too. I mean you start settling more cases, and you just feel like, "You know what? This is not anything that I thought it was going to be."

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah.

Coach Kevin:

Yeah.

Sari de la Motte:

Well, that's the other one that we talked about, is that lots of times, people will come to coaching because either they haven't gotten where they want to go, which is a great reason to come to coaching, because coaching has such a wonderful way of kind of breaking things open and causing transformation, which ... At least the coaching you and I do, things open and cause transformation, which at least the coaching you and I do is all evoking transformation. But I think another reason why they come to coaching as the last ditch effort before they actually pack it up or at least stop seriously considering it is because they've had a recent loss. How do you think that actually plays into this idea of, "I should just quit. This is just bullshit"?

Coach Kevin:

Well, because it becomes an identity of winning. If you think that the only thing is to win, if you lose, then who am I? Yeah. Where do I go from here?

Sari de la Motte:

It's so funny because I have clients who are not where they want to be yet and they haven't had the wins. But we've also had the clients who've come to us who've had a successful run and then just had a loss. And it's just so funny if you could get those two people to talk to each other.

Coach Kevin:

Exactly.

Sari de la Motte:

Because I think so many of our trial attorneys who haven't got the big win yet are thinking, "Well, if I just got the big win, then that would solve all my problems. I wouldn't feel this way anymore." But what we see all the time, because we work with very successful lawyers, is that they've been having the big wins and then, "Oops, now I have a loss." And it absolutely throws them off their game because as you said, it challenges the identity. It challenges who they thought they were, which is why at H2H, we talk a lot about divorcing your identity from winning.

That's one of the first things I talk about in my mastermind program. "Why are you here?" "I want the eight figure verdict." "Oh, we're not going to talk about that for a long time. We're going to put that aside because you cannot have your identity be based on winning."

Coach Kevin:

No.

Sari de la Motte:

And they think, again, if they're going to win, once they do, that'll solve all the problems. But here we have people in both of our offices who have won and then have a loss and it throws them off their game. Talk a little bit more about that. Why is that so earth-shattering for trial attorneys, especially successful ones?

Coach Kevin:

I wanted to pivot a little bit back to what you said. Trial attorney that's won cases for a decade and loses one and trial attorney that hasn't maybe won a lot of cases, but thinks that they want to be like the trial attorney that's won for a decade, it would be wonderful if the two of them had a conversation. I mean, because you're not in this alone.

Sari de la Motte:

No.

Coach Kevin:

And the one that's been so successful has very similar struggles to you.

Sari de la Motte:

They both have the exact same struggle. And I think they don't realize it. It's like, "I had all this wins, but it didn't help me when I had the loss." And the same thing here, "I haven't had the win yet, but I'm thinking it's going to solve my problems and it's not." They both have the same problem. Neither one of them have let go of winning.

Coach Kevin:

No.

Sari de la Motte:

The person who hasn't had it yet and the person who's already had it. And that becomes a huge issue. If you're a longtime listener, you've probably heard me say practice makes progress. And what better way to practice than with a fellow group of trial attorneys in person and with me? Our two-day command, the courtroom masterclass sessions put the H2H method into action and I'm there every step of the way with live coaching and feedback and finish mama fierceness. And don't just take my word for it. Here's what PI attorney Sean had to say about our two-day masterclass.

Sean:

My biggest takeaway is that I now have a new approach as to how I'm going to enter the courtroom. It's a new energy, a new spirit, and it really gets me excited because that's actually the more fun part of what we do. And I'm looking forward to taking advantage of everything that I learned here.

Sari de la Motte:

Now, seats are limited. These are small group, high impact courtroom sessions, not an auditorium full of board attorneys and dull lectures. If you want to change the way you go to trial and turn your practice into progress, visit sariswears.com/masterclass to register for a 2026 class today. That's sariswears.com/masterclass. So we have all these issues of why these trial attorneys want to quit. And first of all, I think both you and I would say we get it.

Coach Kevin:

Oh, yeah.

Sari de la Motte:

I mean, there's a reason why we exist. There's a reason why so many people are like, "Oh my God, where were you 20 years ago?" The reason why so many people are coming to H2H is because we are hearing over and over again, "I wanted to quit and now trial is fun again." Michael Cowan was just here a few months ago. If you haven't heard his podcast, go back and listen to that, about how his life was completely shifted after he got over the thinking that this coaching stuff was. But we get it. It's hard. This life of a trial attorney is hard, this job of a trial attorney's hard. So I don't think you and I want to give the impression today and speak to this more if you'd like, that what's your problem that you want to quit? No,

Coach Kevin:

I think it's a huge part of their tipping point. They get to that point where they don't want to do it anymore because it's so hard and their brain starts screaming at them, but that's the time. That's the time to actually start taking more risks.

Sari de la Motte:

Ooh, I love that idea.

Coach Kevin:

Yeah.

Sari de la Motte:

Don't you think that's true? I don't think I ever thought about that.

Coach Kevin:

It's true. Almost every trial attorney that I've come across that gets into their late 40s or maybe in their 50s and they're thinking they want to maybe pack it in or-

Sari de la Motte:

This is where the breakthrough comes.

Coach Kevin:

This is where the breakthrough comes because everything comes to a head-

Sari de la Motte:

You're so right.

Coach Kevin:

... and their brain just says, "Survival mode, let's quit, pack it in," and you can either listen to that, but then you come to us and we can help you get past that. I mean, that's the juice. That's the job.

Sari de la Motte:

That's so true. I never even thought about that before, but you're right. So often people come to us right at their breaking point when they're like ... I mean, I have a couple people honestly in my masterminds the last several years who are like, "This is my last ditch effort. I'm already questioning whether I should even be a trial attorney and this is it. I'm putting it all in, which I love."

And obviously they often get so much transformation, but I think that's such a good point is that there is help and that it's actually a very exciting place to be when you're at this point where you're like, "I don't even know if I want to do this anymore." To me, that says you're not willing to do it this way anymore. And that's a really exciting place because if you're in the place of, "Well, this is just how it is and you just keep going with it," which they probably have for many years, but some people do that their entire career. If you're listening to this right now and you're thinking, "Yeah, I am about to quit," that's actually a really exciting place to be.

Coach Kevin:

It is. It is. It's this phenomenal place of growth that we have seen happen, and if we can be any kind of a catalyst for that, it's just really a beautiful situation.

Sari de la Motte:

Absolutely. Okay. So we've talked about the reasons why trial attorneys want to quit. They're burned out, they've had a recent loss, they haven't had the win that they've been waiting for, all the things. So let's dig a little deeper before we go into the actual solutions now of why those things are really kind of poking at them to quit. And you and I have come up with three things that we think are really underpinning all of this. So the first one is that they're trying to do it all. They're doing it all. Talk about how this leads to people wanting to quit. I mean, this is burnout, isn't it?

Coach Kevin:

Yeah.

Sari de la Motte:

They're doing it all, but why are they doing it all? Let's talk about that.

Coach Kevin:

They're doing it all because it's all they know. It's what they started out doing. And I mean, I have clients that talk about the darkening of their door, which means they're in their office and as soon as they start to get into any kind of work that's not the minutiae, somebody knocks or somebody's at the door, they all need them all day long.

Sari de la Motte:

Yes.

Coach Kevin:

They need their attention, they need their answers all day long. That will burn anyone out.

Sari de la Motte:

Yes. Yes. And so many of them have a heart for mentorship that they don't want to be like, "Well, right?"

Coach Kevin:

Yeah, that's the thing.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah.

Coach Kevin:

They help people. That's what they do.

Sari de la Motte:

They help people. So in the mastermind program, we talk a lot about how to design your time so that you are open at certain times to talk and mentor and to give your team what they need and at other times you're in deep work. But I think there's a bigger issue here is that they don't want to give up doing all the things. I mean, they are burned out. They are doing all the things, but when it really comes down to it, they're like, "But I'm the only one that knows how to do it." Do you hear that?

Coach Kevin:

Yeah.

Sari de la Motte:

Maybe not. Hear it well. Maybe you do hear that, but you see it, yes.

Coach Kevin:

I hear it too.

Sari de la Motte:

Mm-hmm.

Coach Kevin:

Yeah. "I'm the only one that knows how to do it," and that's fear based. And maybe there was a time that you handed it off to somebody and they put something up and we're human beings. They're human beings, this happens. But if that's the time that you just say, "That's it. I'm never going to do it again." Well, yeah, you're going to be stuck being the controller of everything and you're going to be completely burned out.

Sari de la Motte:

I think what a lot of people don't recognize, and we're in this right now as a business here at H2H, is that it takes a lot of time and effort to train people to do things the way that you like them done and to have systems and processes in place. And if you're not willing to do that work, you will get into this either or back to black and white thinking where it's either "I have to do it because I'm the only one that does it right or I give it to someone, they fuck it up," that you never spend the time to actually put down those processes and the training and the things in place so that you can have the freedom that you want.

I think money is a big one too for this one. So for some of our newer or younger attorneys or people who've been on their own for a while, it's just them or just maybe them and one paralegal, money becomes a barrier to actually getting help. What would you say to people who are like, "Well, I can't afford to get help. That's why you say to people who are like, "Well, I can't afford to get help. That's why I'm doing it all on my own"?

Coach Kevin:

I can come back with you and I can't afford not to.

Sari de la Motte:

There it is. That's what I was going to say.

Coach Kevin:

But what I was just thinking about is with a money issue too, where you may have some really juicy cases, but you don't focus on them because you've got this caseload of keeping the lights on cases. And that's the minutiae that you're stuck with.

Sari de la Motte:

That's right.

Coach Kevin:

And you never get to these three, four, five cases that are the tops.

Sari de la Motte:

And you end up settling because you're not prepared because you have a caseload of like 200 cases. That's another issue though, right?

Coach Kevin:

It is another issue.

Sari de la Motte:

Is that we're taking too many cases. But I think with the money one, it's like we have always said, if you're going to wait till you can afford it, you're going to be waiting forever.

Coach Kevin:

Exactly. And you get money flows, all of those different concepts that we talk about with money, and it's investing in yourself. It's an important thing to invest in yourself.

Sari de la Motte:

I think the biggest lesson that you and I have learned is that you have to do it before you can afford it.

Coach Kevin:

Yep.

Sari de la Motte:

And then you step into it, and we talked about that a lot on the podcast. But I think for our trial attorneys, once they have the help, then they can spend the time on the cases and get the bigger verdicts and/or settlements, but they're going to be in this self-fulfilling loop of, well, I can't afford that. And then there's trying to keep the lights on and all the things where at some point you're going to have to step out and be like, "Okay, I'm hiring some help." And I have never had anybody hire help and go, "You know what? I couldn't afford it. And I was living in a van down by the river at the end of the year."

Coach Kevin:

I have done the let's play it out scenario. You know that one?

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah.

Coach Kevin:

Yep. And you have them just go all the way down the rabbit hole of how terrible it'll be. But then they usually, I've got the other side, they decide to hire somebody and they never regret.

Sari de la Motte:

Well, and-

Coach Kevin:

Maybe they'll have to hire a new person. Maybe the first person didn't work.

Sari de la Motte:

Right.

Coach Kevin:

Yeah.

Sari de la Motte:

Well, and I love playing it all the way to the end like you do because then we talk and we go, "Okay, and where in that process, if that were to happen, you could have stopped it here, here, here," right?

Coach Kevin:

Yep.

Sari de la Motte:

They think, "No, no, no. It's going to happen until I'm living in a van down by the river."

Coach Kevin:

Yeah.

Sari de la Motte:

Right.

Coach Kevin:

There's so many steps that happen in between where you are now and the van by the river.

Sari de la Motte:

So they're trying to do it all. That's one of the reasons why they're burned down.

Coach Kevin:

Yep.

Sari de la Motte:

For sure. Okay. The other thing that they're doing, the second thing is they're doing it alone. Okay, this one I think is huge, especially for our true, true trial lawyers.

Coach Kevin:

I agree.

Sari de la Motte:

And what do I mean by true trial lawyers? I mean trial lawyers who love to try cases. If you are doing this by yourself, you are doing it wrong, I have to say, because you're doing it alone. I think a big reason why we want to quit as trial attorneys is because we don't have that input from our colleagues that are like, "No, you can get this. You can go ..."

One of the most beautiful things that I have seen, and it's been so fun this year because now I have six masterminds where I only normally have three, and this is the first year I've had six. It's twice the fun, I have to tell you. But one of the best parts of my mastermind program, whether it's three or six, is to see the attorneys support each other and give each other both the skills help, the mindset help, the I don't know if I'm making the right decision to help. And that in itself, I think, prevents people from wanting to quit. What are your thoughts about not doing it alone and how important that is?

Coach Kevin:

Well, one of the key things in coaching and one of the key things in collaboration like you're talking about is that you have somebody to point out your blind spots. And when you're on an island, when you're by yourself completely, you don't have anybody to do that. So just the fact that someone can bring up maybe their experience or something they're seeing that's not quite working and you can pivot, that could be something that makes the difference in a case and just about anything in your practice. And you would have that opportunity on a regular basis by just working with other attorneys.

Sari de la Motte:

Yes.

Coach Kevin:

Yeah.

Sari de la Motte:

And it's so fun.

Coach Kevin:

It makes it more fun.

Sari de la Motte:

It's so fun-

Coach Kevin:

It makes it so much more fun.

Sari de la Motte:

... to work with other people. We hear that over and over again, they're almost apologetic. They'll come out to the courtrooms or they'll come out for their trial labs with the mastermind program and they'll be like, "You're great, sorry, but oh my gosh, getting to do this with everybody else." And we're like, "You don't need to apologize for that."

Coach Kevin:

I love to hear that. That's what we were working towards.

Sari de la Motte:

Yes.

Coach Kevin:

We want the group to gel.

Sari de la Motte:

Yes.

Coach Kevin:

Yeah.

Sari de la Motte:

So whether that's in a program like H2H or I know several of my masterminds are in an office, just them and a couple associates, but they have built in where they're meeting regularly and they're getting that camaraderie even in their own firms. It's huge. It's huge. So that's one of the reasons too, is they're doing it all and they're doing it alone.

And the third thing I think that underpins all of this is that they're doing it wrong. And what I mean by that is that they are not having fun in how they're trying the case. It doesn't have to be H2H. I think H2H is amazing. But I think that what we hear over and over again is that trial is fun again. And I think a huge part of that is because we do mindset work with our clients and that's a big part of it.

But I also think the method itself is designed so that you can have fun. You can have fun in voir dire. We teach you how to have resonant conversations, how to get the jury to solve your problems, to not do exclusionary voir dire. Obviously you're going to still get rid of jurors, we don't embrace everyone. But that you have a different look at the jurors from the beginning, that there are people here that want to help me. And that in itself changes the whole experience and that we teach storytelling and risking and being totally snarky and all the things in closing.

If you're not using a trial method that is allowing you to have fun at trial, and that can mean a lot of different things. It could mean just doing exclusionary voir dire and asking stupid ass questions like what bumper stickers are on your car? I can't imagine that would be fun for anybody. And it could be being afraid to go outside of the script because so-and-so trial consultants said never, ever deviate. But regardless of what method that you're using, I think you should be having fun. Like you said, we rarely get to trial. Once you're there, don't you want to enjoy the experience? What would you say to this, about doing it wrong?

Coach Kevin:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, and the fact that we have them on their feet and they're collaborating, that's the right way. That's the way to work up a case, that's the way to work up anything like that.

Sari de la Motte:

Absolutely. Yeah.

Coach Kevin:

And the fact that they get off their notes and there isn't this stringent [inaudible 00:26:40]-

Sari de la Motte:

We don't even create the notes.

Coach Kevin:

Yeah, we don't. It makes it fun. The process and practicing it makes ... You're practicing leading up to trial, you're in that trial mindset the whole time and then you get to trial.

Sari de la Motte:

Well, I think that's a good point that you have is that it's not only just having fun at trials, that they're having such fun preparing for a trial.

Coach Kevin:

Yeah. Preparation should be fun too.

Sari de la Motte:

That they can't wait and go and try a case. In fact, we just had a mastermind here who was out, they were out on the 6th for their first trial lab. And they left on Friday and he went and tried a case on Monday, different case, a different case than he was even trying out here that he was preparing out here. Got a $1.8 million verdict and I think, what? A $30,000 offer, something insane.

Coach Kevin:

Yeah, it was.

Sari de la Motte:

And had so much fun and was so ready to go, even with a different case, just by getting up on his feet and not doing it alone, being with his comrades, the sexy six. That's what we call them.

Coach Kevin:

Oh, the sexy six. That's right.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah.

Coach Kevin:

And just that energy too. It's like you're sending that out and I'm going to get woo-woo here, but you're sending out that energy that you're so ready to go.

Sari de la Motte:

That's right.

Coach Kevin:

That's when the numbers go up on settlements.

Sari de la Motte:

Absolutely.

Coach Kevin:

They want you to not get in there because they know that you're so ready.

Sari de la Motte:

Yes, you're just vibrating, man. It's awesome.

Coach Kevin:

Yeah.

Sari de la Motte:

Okay. So what's the solution for doing it all, doing it alone, and doing it wrong? Well, the first solution is to get help. Oh my gosh. Hire before you can afford it. I will just say that, hire before you can afford it, even if it's part-time, just to show you that taking some things off your plate is going to make your whole life better. And then I'm going to let you talk about the second one, which is delegate.

Coach Kevin:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, that we go back all the way back that you're doing everything. And there's that process of delegation, but even before that, that's the process of designing with them and making sure that your team is completely gelled to do this. You want to get them excited about it. And so many times, they'll get excited about it and you don't want to do it at all. So that's great, let them pick that up.

Sari de la Motte:

That's right.

Coach Kevin:

Let them do the thing that they really want to do and you don't have to do it anymore.

Sari de la Motte:

That's right.

Coach Kevin:

Yeah.

Sari de la Motte:

So hire help and then design with your team and actually end up delegating. But you've got to put time in your schedule for that.

Coach Kevin:

Yep.

Sari de la Motte:

The second thing, so that you don't want to quit, so you don't end up quitting once you get help, I'll tell you, that is such a big deal for so many people once they get help, that takes off so much of this pressure, is to collaborate. Collaborate. You've got to have people that you can play with, honestly. And you can be like, "Hey, can I check this out with you? Can I try a little bit of my opening? What do you think I should do about this settlement offer?" Whatever it is, you need to find your people.

H2H, our people are amazing to each other. That's just one group. TLC is a group that's amazing to each other. It doesn't matter what it is, but don't do it alone.

Coach Kevin:

No, yeah.

Sari de la Motte:

You've got to collaborate.

Coach Kevin:

Well, and the collaboration, you use the word play and it's fun because most of the trial attorneys that we come across are highly creative.

Sari de la Motte:

Yes.

Coach Kevin:

I was just talking to a client yesterday and how he loves trying cases and working up cases because it's so creative. It's such a creative process. And so many of these guys, gals, they get together and they play with their creativity. It makes it so much fun. It's an exciting experience.

Sari de la Motte:

Yes, for sure.

Coach Kevin:

Yeah.

Sari de la Motte:

For sure. So collaborate, collaborate, collaborate. So collaborate, collaborate, collaborate. Even just with a trial consultant. There's so many times that I'm working one-on-one with the clients, just two of us. And they're like, "Oh my God, that's so brilliant." I'm like, "No, we're brilliant. I couldn't do this by myself. You can do it by yourself, but together we're just like ping, ping, ping, pong, pong. And we just come with the greatest stuff." And nearly all of my clients leave a consulting session going, "Oh my gosh, I have so many ideas." 90 minutes is gone already, they can't believe it. It's just exciting to do it with someone else, whether it's a trial consultant or your own paralegal. Just get in that mode of not just sitting behind your desk in your brain.

Coach Kevin:

Well, what I just thought of, yeah, you said it in your brain, but yeah, you're holding it all in your head when you're not with somebody.

Sari de la Motte:

Yes. That's right.

Coach Kevin:

When you're with somebody, it helps open things up.

Sari de la Motte:

That's right.

Coach Kevin:

And you're not doing it all alone.

Sari de la Motte:

That's right.

Coach Kevin:

It's such a freeing process.

Sari de la Motte:

And three, which is the answer to you're doing it wrong, is get a trial method that jives with you. Listen, if you are the kind of person that loves to be told that you're doing everything wrong and you always have to do it a certain way because you're actually a sub and you need a dom, then fine. I'm not going to judge you for that. Everybody has their kinks. I mean, I'm the dom in this relationship, obviously.

Coach Kevin:

You think so. Yeah.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah, but I don't know. We're just having so much fucking fun at H2H. Trial is fun. Again, I have to tell the story about one of my masterminds who totally wanted me to fuck with them at this last trial lab.

Coach Kevin:

Oh God, this is great.

Sari de la Motte:

And so he said, "Give me a word." I'm like, "What do you mean?" He's like, "Give me a word that I can use when I have voir dire." And I'm like, "I don't know. Foliage." I think you came up with that one or caramel. And he comes out and the first thing he does is like, "I'm smooth like a caramel." I'm like, "Oh my God." And they were talking about Alzheimer's and people's experiences with this. And he was like, "Did her memory drop off right away or like foliage from it? " I'm like, "You fucker"

Coach Kevin:

And he's drawing it with a green pen.

Sari de la Motte:

He's drawing it. And I was like, "Okay, fine. I'm really going with it. " And I never do that. I wouldn't say never, but I rarely do this.

Coach Kevin:

You are doing it.

Sari de la Motte:

And so as he's with the actual jury, I go up very slowly and I'd write on an index card, I dare you to sit in front of the jury, like sit on the ground.

And I just put it on his chair and I walked away and I barely even turned around and there he is sitting on... To the point where people are looking over.

Coach Kevin:

They're trying to look over the box and see him.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah, they're looking over and they can't see him. And he's like, "I just want you to imagine..." He just flowed...

Coach Kevin:

Flowed right into it.

Sari de la Motte:

Flowed right into it.

Coach Kevin:

Did a visualization with him.

Sari de la Motte:

Yes. And this is an attorney that didn't used to be that free, but after all of this practicing, just as an example of how much fun. Now it's not a real jury, although I wouldn't say not to do that in front of... They loved it.

Coach Kevin:

Yeah, they did.

Sari de la Motte:

It was great. And we just have so much. If you're not having fun as you're prepping up your cases, whether you're doing it alone, which you're probably not having fun, or you're doing it in another group that just feels competitive and gross, then you're doing it wrong. I'm telling you. Again, it doesn't have to be H2H, but that we find is the number one reason where people are like, "I love trying cases again. I like being a trial lawyer again." So that's how we think you can get out of this funk, but we have a little bonus one for you, which actually isn't a bonus.

It's a huge part of the work that you do with people, which is not making trial lawyering be your entire fucken life.

Coach Kevin:

Yeah.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah. And so that work life balance is a huge piece. Talk a little bit about that and how much you work with that with your clients. Once you get them here where you're like, "You're doing too much. Let's get you some help." And you're like, "Okay, let's get you delegating. Let's get you collaborating." And they're in H2H already, so they're already learning that. Then you really start working with them, I won't even say that you wait, you probably start right away with, okay, what do you do outside of being a trial lawyer? Why is that important?

Coach Kevin:

Well, I mean, we were talking earlier about the identity of winning.

If that's your only identity, let's say the example of a trial attorney that loses after winning a bunch. Well, okay, then if that's it, you just lost. What are you going to do now? And the first thing I think of is, well, do something different. Step outside of it, go back to the things that you love to do outside of work, something that's a different perspective. And then you can come back from the weeds and look at things differently, but try new things or try things that you used to do, that you used to love because there's a whole person here. You're not just a trial attorney.

Sari de la Motte:

That's right. As much as we love our trial attorneys, they are so much bigger.

Coach Kevin:

And they do great things, fun things. I mean, some of the coolest, most amazing hobbies I've heard of are trial attorneys that are like, "Well, I used to do this." I'm like, "Did you do that? Why don't you try doing that again?"

Sari de la Motte:

Yes.

Coach Kevin:

And it starts opening things up in their lives and in their practice. Just get out of the office sometime, people.

Sari de la Motte:

I think you're right because I think when your entire identity and life is trial lawyering, the loss is so much bigger.

Coach Kevin:

Oh, my God.

Sari de la Motte:

Because that's your whole life.

Coach Kevin:

It's everything.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah. But when it's just a job, and I know it's not just a job, but I'm saying it's just part of your job. And listen, we talk about, are you willing all the time to our jurors, but I ask my clients all the time, are you willing to have the trial lawyer life, which includes losing? It is just a part of it, as horrible as it is, but when you have a rich life, which is what coaching really helps with, it helps soften that blow because that's not the only part of your life.

So you run a program, if our people haven't listened, if you're new to us, called Momentum Coaching. Talk a little bit about this program and how people can connect with a coach to get out of this thought of, "Maybe I should just quit."

Coach Kevin:

Yeah.

Well, Momentum Coaching is a program that I've been running and I've got a group of people right now and they're trial attorneys like we've been talking about that have been doing this for a while. And some of them actually have said, "I don't know if I want to do this anymore." But you basically can get a sample session with me. We can coach, you can see if it works, but it's a nine-month program and we go through coaching one-on-one twice a month. We have a group call together and that's that collaboration with the attorneys. They get together and you're not alone. And then there's a retreat that happens.

Sari de la Motte:

They come out for two days.

Coach Kevin:

They come out for two days. So it's not just one-on-one coaching with you and I, we want to also make sure that you have that community piece and the collaboration. So you come out here and have lots of fun. The retreat's really fun.

Sari de la Motte:

And you design this program around them, right?

Coach Kevin:

I do.

Sari de la Motte:

After your first session, it's like...

Coach Kevin:

It's curated around the client.

Sari de la Motte:

It's just curated around what they want to really work on. And so it's not just out of the box. I mean, it's something that's just cookie cutter for everybody. Every single person in your program is really getting curated coaching. So how can they get a sample session with you?

Coach Kevin:

You just go to https://sariswears.com/coaching and you'll see that it's a layout of, it's got me on there, momentum coaching, and you can click and get a sample session with me.

Sari de la Motte:

And what does that mean, sample session? Do they have to pay for that?

Coach Kevin:

No, it's free. And it's 40 minutes. And we'll go through coaching. You can bring a topic and if you're having struggles finding a topic, we'll get there. And it just really shows you what coaching is all about and coaching with me is all about. And then I'll also give you a breakdown of what the program is all about.

Sari de la Motte:

Wonderful. Yeah. Wonderful.

I have found that in my program, I offer coaching, I offer skills work, I offer videotaping yourself and watching it back. Where they come to and work with mock juries three times over the year. And at the end of working with me for 12 months, consistently they'll say, "It was the mindset. That was the big part. That was the thing that made the difference." So if you're thinking about quitting or you're feeling stuck like, "Well, I can't quit." There is help available. You are at a wonderful place where you're not willing to have it feel like this anymore and Kevin can help. We will be talking to you toward the end of this year about how you might be able to get into my mastermind program, if that's something you want to do. But a lot of my clients come from coaching Kevin.

They're ready then to come to me. So don't wait to get to me. Start with Kevin, if nothing else, to get some coaching under your belt. Again, https://sariswears.com/coaching.

Since we are giving you some things, now I'm going to ask for something. And that is, if you've not subscribed to the podcast, go ahead and hit subscribe. That helps us get into more ears. That sounds gross, but you are listening to me. So thank you, Coach K for being here.

Coach Kevin:

My pleasure.

Sari de la Motte:

It was a wonderful conversation, and I hope that helps. We don't want you quitting if you actually are meant to be a trial attorney, which most of you are.

Coach Kevin:

Yep.

Sari de la Motte:

So there is help available, and we hope at least this podcast has got you started to think about some of the things that can help.

All right, talk next week.

Thank you for listening to the very end of this episode, A+.

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Bye-bye everybody.