Sari Swears Podcast: Special Guest Michael Cowen

Michael was here in Portland for our January Masterclass… so of COURSE I had to take the opportunity to sit down with him in the podcast room. 😉

Michael Cowen is a trial lawyer, firm owner, author of Big Rig Justice, AND host of Trial Lawyer Nation.

We talk about:

👉🏽 His path from Wall Street litigator to plaintiff trial lawyer
👉🏽 The evolution of his practice (and his firm) over the years
👉🏽 What shifted when he focused on the internal work (not just trial tactics)
👉🏽 Why loving trial is very different from simply getting through trial

It’s a grounded, honest conversation about growth, professionally and personally, and what it REALLY takes to keep getting better in this work.

If you care about mastery, you’ll want to listen.

Tune in NOW! 🎧

Love,
Sari

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➡️FREE FB GROUP FOR PLAINTIFF & CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEYS

“I could do all the trial techniques in the world. I could memorize other people’s openings and copy their moves. But none of it would matter until I fixed myself. When I didn’t trust the jury, when I didn’t trust myself, that came through — in my tone, in my body language, in my eyes. And if they don’t trust you, they shouldn’t trust you. The shift for me was learning to believe that I am just as deserving, capable, and worthy as anyone else — not better, not worse. Once I stopped tying verdicts to my worth, everything changed.”
michael cowen

Transcription

Michael Cowen:

So my assignment was to research the New York abandoned property law from the time Hitler took power to the present to see if there was ever a legal obligation for the Swiss banks to have like-

Sari de la Motte:

Oh my goodness.

Michael Cowen:

... New York, you guys hold on to the money, we don't know whose it is. We're not keeping it.

Sari de la Motte:

Okay. Did you find it?

Michael Cowen:

I can't give the details of what-

Sari de la Motte:

Okay.

Michael Cowen:

... nor do I remember from 1997 what the details were.

Sari de la Motte:

You're listening to Sari Swear on the Sari Swears podcast.

Well, welcome everyone to another episode of Sari Swears. I'm very excited to have on the podcast again, but now we're in person, I don't think we've ever done this in person. Michael Cowen, very highly accomplished trial lawyer and the host of your own podcast, Trial Lawyer Nation. Welcome, Michael.

Michael Cowen:

Howdy, thank you for having me again.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah. So you're out here to command the courtroom closing, and we're going to talk about that in a minute. But I know that one of the things that you and I love to chat about is mindsets. I want to talk about that. Before we get there though-

Michael Cowen:

Good.

Sari de la Motte:

... tell me ... Remind me or our listeners for the first time, how you and I met, if you remember.

Michael Cowen:

I remember the way we met is I came up to do a workday with you because I had a case where I had designed all these boards that-

Sari de la Motte:

I remember.

Michael Cowen:

... I was going to use it in an opening statement.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah.

Michael Cowen:

And I heard that you could help me use the boards with body language and stuff and not be as awkward with them. And you told me that if I was telling the jury this was a simple case when I brought up 80 boards, my actions were incongruous with my words. And I ended up using a flip chart and no boards for my opening and got a nice verdict.

Sari de la Motte:

Lovely. And so I think somewhere around there we ended up ... You ended up becoming my first mastermind. I think I was calling it back then, mastermind, but that's really what it was.

Michael Cowen:

I was a VIP back then.

Sari de la Motte:

VIP, that's right. My VIP program. And you were the first, where we did some mindset coaching along with trial work and all of the things. And so tell me a little bit before we go into that, your personal trajectory into where you are now. So where did you start? And how'd you get to where you are now?

Michael Cowen:

Okay. Well, how far back do you want to go?

Sari de la Motte:

Well, what made you become a trial lawyer? Let's start there.

Michael Cowen:

So I didn't start off as a trial lawyer. And I started off saying I would do anything but plaintiff's law or criminal defense.

Sari de la Motte:

I've heard that before from other people. Isn't that funny?

Michael Cowen:

In fact, before I started law school, I have an uncle that was Chief of Staff for a state senator who got elected on a tort reform platform. And I had dinner with my uncle and a man named Bill Summers who founded a group called Citizens Against Lawsuit Abuse. And I was going to go work and make sure that we protected companies from these crazy plaintiff's lawyers.

Sari de la Motte:

Well, that's amazing. How did you go from that to where you are now?

Michael Cowen:

Well, during law school, my plan was to ... Actually, I didn't know what to do because if you knew me in undergrad, you would not think that me going to law school would have been a good idea. And I had a couple really bad semesters. I did well on the LSAT, but I had two uncles that were insurance defense lawyers and they both told me, "Don't go to law school. No one's going to hire you. There's no jobs right now." And so that got me really mad and made me want to go even more.

My dad had a used car lot, my two uncles were lawyers, I wasn't going to talk to them. I had no idea what you were supposed to do. And so at the law school, this was pre-internet. So when the law firms would come and interview, they would have these papers taped to the wall in one hallway. And the big Texas firms said, "You have to be in the top 25% and we start at $60,000." Which back then was a lot of money. But the New York firm said, "You have to be in the top 10% of your class and we started at $83,000."

So based purely on that, I decided I wanted to go to New York.

Sari de la Motte:

Okay.

Michael Cowen:

So I did the traditional, I clerked for a federal appellate judge for a year and then I went to the oldest firm in the United States and started off as a Wall Street Corporate Litigator.

Sari de la Motte:

Wow. And how was that? Did you like that?

Michael Cowen:

Yes and no. I loved the cases. I worked on six different cases that were on 60 Minutes. Now, the work I did was writing memos and reviewing documents. It wasn't sexy work.

I didn't mind the hours. They were crazy hours. But what I did see were two things. One, I saw the stream of 10 and 11 year associates that were told, "Hey, you're in litigation, but you've never tried a case, so we can't make you a partner. So we'll give you six months to find another job." And those were the very, very few people that made it that long. And I said, "Well, I don't know if that's the future I want." We have 80 lawyers in our litigation department and they do one to two trials a year at most. I don't know that I'm going to be the lawyer I want to be.

And then just so much wasted work. I mean, so much like you would write a memo that someone else would incorporate into a part of a motion that someone else would create a motion that someone else would review and all this silly work that [inaudible 00:05:23] a lot of money.

Sari de la Motte:

It's like you're a cog in the wheel. Yeah.

Michael Cowen:

And a lot of really unnecessary work, to be perfectly honest. Like really going and triple checking and proofreading a memo that's just going to be circulated around the office, that no client's ever going to see. And I had worked part-time because I wanted money for two plaintiff's firms while I was in law school. And I really enjoyed that work. And then I met the woman who's now my wife six weeks before I moved to New York, we started dating.

Sari de la Motte:

How long have you been married now?

Michael Cowen:

26 years.

Sari de la Motte:

26 years. Congratulations.

Michael Cowen:

Thank you.

And so I was visiting her, she was visiting me. So I'd go back home. And so some friends of mine back home worked at firms and those firms started recruiting me on the defense side. And so there was a federal judge, magistrate judge that I was very close to from my time as a clerk. And I asked him, "What do you think of these firms?" He goes, "Well, they're okay. Here's two other firms you should interview." And by the way, there's a man named Ed Stapleton. He knows more about ... He's a good friend of mine, he knows more about what's going on on the plaintiff's side. And I said, "Well, I've only met him once in my life. Could you call him and let him know that I'm going to call him?"

So I actually called him purely for advice on what defense firm to apply with. At this point, I wasn't adverse to doing plaintiff's work because I'd worked for plaintiff's firms, it was fun. When I took torts, I suddenly understood why we had compensation. But it still wasn't what I was looking for at that point in my journey. And he actually said, "Well, those are fine firms, but you should work for me instead for three reasons. I will teach you how to try those cases and those motherfuckers don't know how to try cases. I will let you try cases. They'll lie to you, but they won't really let you try cases. And I will send you to the Gerry Spence Trial Lawyers College." Which I never heard of before then. "And you can't go if you do defense work." This was back in 1997.

And so I really struggled with it. Because it was less money upfront than what the defense firms were offering.

Sari de la Motte:

Sure.

Michael Cowen:

But I did want to try cases for some reason. It seemed like that's what lawyers were supposed to do. And the Spence thing seemed neat. I didn't know that much about it, but I learned a little bit about it. And then all ... I remember I was talking to some of the partners in New York about it, because I was thinking about leaving. Well, you got to watch Gerry Spence. We watched him do that Marcos case. And I don't know that ... I'm thinking he won.

Sari de la Motte:

Right. I don't think he ever lost a case. Is that actually right?

Michael Cowen:

He never lost a criminal case and he hadn't lost a civil case in decades.

Sari de la Motte:

Decades. Yeah. Did you end up going to the ranch?

Michael Cowen:

Yeah, in 1998. And then I was on the faculty there for a while in the early 2000s.

Sari de la Motte:

Okay. So you eventually made your way all the way into the plaintiff.

Michael Cowen:

Yeah, no, I went to work for Stapleton instead of going to one of the defense firms. Actually, I prayed about it and I said, "Give me a sign." And so I was in New York, about once a week I would get an assignment at about 4:30 or 5:00 that would be due by 10:00 AM the next morning. So my job, there were class action cases filed against Swiss banks because before, like in the late 30s, after the Nazis came to power, a lot of Jews, they didn't know how bad it was going to get, but they knew that their property and money wasn't safe. So they put their money in Swiss banks. And after the war, survivors came and said, "Hey, I think my dad or my grandfather had money in your bank." And they said, "Well, do you have a death certificate?" And they're like, "Well, they didn't give out death certificates."

Sari de la Motte:

Right.

Michael Cowen:

And they kept the money.

Sari de la Motte:

Jesus.

Michael Cowen:

And so there's class actions against the Swiss banks. Well, it turned out that the Swiss banks weren't so trusting of Hitler to recognize Swiss neutrality. So they put some of their money in gold into New York banks during the war. So my assignment was to research the New York abandoned property law from the time Hitler took power to the present to see if there was ever a legal obligation for the Swiss banks to have like-

Sari de la Motte:

Oh my goodness.

Michael Cowen:

New York, you guys hold on to the money, we don't know whose it is. We're not keeping it.

Sari de la Motte:

Okay. Did you find it?

Michael Cowen:

I can't give the details of what=.

Sari de la Motte:

Okay.

Michael Cowen:

... nor do I remember from 1997 what the details were. But I did say, "Okay, God, you've told me a sign that I'm on the wrong side. That I think I should be representing the people and not the companies that want to take-

Sari de la Motte:

The money's gone.

Michael Cowen:

... the money."

And so yeah, I took the job and he kept his promises, he did pay me less money.

Sari de la Motte:

That's one thing.

Michael Cowen:

Actually, I'm kidding, I ended up doing okay. But he did send me to the Ranch in 1998. The first trial, I sat there and watched him. The second trial, he sat next to me and passed me notes and nudged me. And the third trial, I was on my own. And so I started-

Sari de la Motte:

Good for him.

Michael Cowen:

He is a wonderful man but would take any case and had no selection criteria. So I got to try a lot of really bad cases with very low risk very early on. So I think I tried four or five cases that first year.

Sari de la Motte:

If you're a longtime listener, you've probably heard me say, "Practice makes progress." And what better way to practice than with a fellow group of trial attorneys in person and with me. Our two-day Command The Courtroom Masterclass sessions put the H2H Method into action. I'm there every step of the way with live coaching and feedback and finish mama fierceness. Here's what Kent had to say about our masterclass.

Kent:

Out of every program I've been to, I've taken good points away. But out of this program, everything I've learned has been new and has been something I can implement on day one into my practice and into my next trial. And I feel a greater comfort than I've ever felt before walking into a courtroom and getting to speak with my friends in the voir dire panel.

Sari de la Motte:

Now, seats are limited. These are small group, high impact courtroom sessions, not an auditorium full of board attorneys and dull lectures. If you want to change the way you go to trial and turn your practice into progress, visit SariSwears.com/masterclass to register for a 2026 class today. That's SariSwears.com/masterclass.

Well, just to pause in your story here, that brings up a good point. I hear often when attorneys haven't tried a lot of cases before, that they somehow feel guilty for even doing it. That they're saying, "Why should I practice on this client, so to speak? I should probably just bring in someone better to try the case for me." What would you say to that?

Michael Cowen:

Well, how are you going to get better if you don't try?

Sari de la Motte:

How are you going to get better? Yeah.

Michael Cowen:

And honestly, well, one, I really thought I was really good back then. I think my opinion of my trial skills was probably higher back then than it is now, although I think my trial skills are much better now and a little bit more hubris.

Sari de la Motte:

The arrogance of the young.

Michael Cowen:

Yeah, absolutely. And so I don't think ... But the fact is, for the cases I was trying, I was the right lawyer. So back then, I tried a lot of disputed liability, low property damage, chiropractor only cases. And I was the best lawyer for that case. I am not the right lawyer for that case at this point in my career today. I've represented so many people that were horribly injured, I've got so many other things, that case would fall between my cracks. If that case was assigned to me, that unfortunately would be the last thing to work on. It would be a disservice to the client.

Sari de la Motte:

I love that idea of the right case for you. Yeah. Depending on where you are in your career. When did you start your own law firm?

Michael Cowen:

Well, my boss quit, and I don't want to go into the details. But I had three weeks notice that all of a sudden I was a law firm owner.

Sari de la Motte:

Wow.

Michael Cowen:

And because of my codependency issues that I had back then, I didn't just say, "Then get lost, I'm going to go get another job." I took on the firm. So I had, after a referral fee, paying him out, on average, I had 22.5 to 30% of the fee, not in the case of the one third to 40%. And I was trying to make payroll and fund the law firm and ended up on my own. I struggled for a long time, tried different things, hooking up with different people, and it didn't work out.

And yeah, from there to '06 ... From '99 to '06, it was a bunch of stuff until finally I had a partnership breakup where I couldn't afford to both do the buyout of the partner that left that I let in for free and fund the cases. So I took a job for a really good plaintiff lawyer from '06 until '08. And that really was transformational because I actually worked for somebody that could run a law firm as a business and practice at a high level.

Sari de la Motte:

And then you opened your current law firm when?

Michael Cowen:

2008.

Sari de la Motte:

2008.

Michael Cowen:

It had different names. But yeah, 2008, I went back on my own. Even though I still love the guy I was working for, I didn't think he was letting himself be happy. And what's the point of a bunch of success if you're not happy and I wanted to be happy.

Sari de la Motte:

So your firm now is based in-

Michael Cowen:

San Antonio.

Sari de la Motte:

... San Antonio and you have, you were telling me early, about 30 people there, right? 10 lawyers total?

Michael Cowen:

10 lawyers, about 35, 36 employees total.

Sari de la Motte:

And you also have a branch in ...

Michael Cowen:

I have another firm that I own half of in New Mexico-

Sari de la Motte:

In New Mexico.

Michael Cowen:

... that has another lawyer and six or seven employees there.

Sari de la Motte:

And you also are the host of a very popular podcast, Trial Lawyer Nation. When did Trial Lawyer Nation first come out?

Michael Cowen:

2018.

Sari de la Motte:

2018. That's about the same time mine came out, I think. We're kind of equal there. So when you first were with me and we started mindset coaching, you now say, and I hear people all the time, "Sorry, did you listen to the recent one of TLN? Michael mentioned you again." So I'm so grateful for that, but the mindset piece really had a big impact on you. Why do you think that is?

Michael Cowen:

Because it's more important than any trial skill.

Sari de la Motte:

Say more.

Michael Cowen:

I think I unconsciously held myself back because when I didn't trust the jury, when I didn't trust myself, then I subconsciously communicated through my tone, through my body language-

Sari de la Motte:

Yes.

Michael Cowen:

... through my eyes that I don't trust you and I don't even trust me.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah. And if they don't trust you, they shouldn't trust you.

Michael Cowen:

Right. And so even though I was getting better verdicts than other lawyers in my community and I was still getting referrals and I was still doing good work, I think I remember talking to you about like, I'm getting verdicts, but not capital V Verdicts.

Sari de la Motte:

Yes.

Michael Cowen:

I'm not getting the verdicts that I think my clients deserve. And what I learned is I could do all the trial techniques in the world, I can go memorize other people's things and none of it would matter until I fixed myself.

Sari de la Motte:

That's right. And not that you were broken.

Michael Cowen:

Let me rephrase that. Fixing myself was wrong.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah.

Michael Cowen:

Until I learned to accept that I am just as capable, deserving ... What do I say every morning? I'm just deserving, capable, and worthy of everything in my life as any other person on earth. Not any better, but not any worse.

Sari de la Motte:

I love that. I love that. And so a lot of the mindset work is really getting out of your own way. So it was really uncovering the beliefs that were getting in the way. Let's talk about some of those things. Before you started mindset training, what are some of the things that on the regular you would think either about yourself or the jury?

Michael Cowen:

Yeah. That other people had some magic secret that I didn't have or some magic attribute that I didn't have.

Sari de la Motte:

You were the only one feeling the way you felt, right?

Michael Cowen:

Well, I just felt like there were a few people that just had this magic secret sauce that I didn't have. And either it was something I hadn't learned yet or it was just something innate that they had that I didn't have.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah. And could never have.

Michael Cowen:

Right. And that was the fear. I mean, I didn't want to believe that. But that was the fear that the jurors just wouldn't like me enough or they just didn't want to do the right thing and I would have to somehow convince them or force them or guilt them or somehow.

Sari de la Motte:

Or 80 boards, show them. Yeah.

Michael Cowen:

Yeah. I still use boards with experts.

Sari de la Motte:

For sure. Yeah. There's a place for boards.

Michael Cowen:

There is time to use boards.

Sari de la Motte:

Absolutely. And PowerPoints too.

Michael Cowen:

Yeah.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah. So what was the breakthrough then? What do you think really made the difference in terms of your mindset?

Michael Cowen:

Yeah, I don't think it was ... I think breakthrough is the wrong thing. I mean, I started off with having to tell myself things and eventually start believing them. So I got it from you, you have to trust the jury. And it may or may not be true, but if you tell yourself the jurors are good people, they're here to do the right thing, they're going to do justice. You're going to approach them better. Whether it's true or not, you're telling yourself that, you're behaving that, you're treating them that way, you're more likely to get that result.

Sari de la Motte:

That's right.

Michael Cowen:

And I do the same with judges. Whether or not they're going to rule in my favor or not, I just tell myself, "The judge is a good person. She's making the ruling she believes to be correct under her understanding of the facts of law." I may not agree with her-

Sari de la Motte:

That's right.

Michael Cowen:

... but I'm going to respect her. And I'm going to assume good intent. I'm not going to think that ... She may hate me. But I'm going to assume that she's making the ruling because that's what she thinks is right and I'm going to just live with it.

Sari de la Motte:

And how has that changed things for you, your actual practice of law?

Michael Cowen:

Well, it's a lot more fun, a lot less stressful. And so I love trials now. I liked trials before, but now I love trial. Because I am just having fun. And I'll never say this in front of a client again, but in my thought, if I do it by job and the jury fucks it up, that's really not my problem.

Sari de la Motte:

That's right. That's what I told you, right? I said what the jury decides is on the jury. And when I always work with my masterminds now, and it started with you, one of the first things we put down was wanting this certain result. It's like, "Well, why are you here?" "Well, I want better verdicts." "Okay, great. We're going to put that down." And you were like, "Wait, why?" And I said, "Because if that's all we're focused on, then we can't really do the work that we need to do." That is going to be evidence of the work we're doing. It's not the point of the work that we're doing.

Michael Cowen:

And very specifically, I told you I wanted to get an eight figure verdict. And I didn't get one until I no longer cared whether I got an eight figure verdict because it no longer was something that was a measure of my worth as a person or lawyer.

Sari de la Motte:

Yes, yes. And I was hoping you wouldn't get one until then-

Michael Cowen:

I wasn't.

Sari de la Motte:

... because what happens is ... I know. Because what happens though is that then that becomes another thing. And once you get it, then it's like, well, what's the next thing? Well, then I got to top that or I got to repeat that or whatever it may be. But it's so counterintuitive to really put that down, focus on the work that you can have control over and enjoy actually being in trial. I remember after we worked together, I don't know, a year or so. And we worked on and off since then for the last, what, six years or so. But people would come to me and they would say ... And they'd come to you too, "What happened to you? Something is different." You heard that.

Michael Cowen:

Well, you-

Sari de la Motte:

What do you think they were noticing?

Michael Cowen:

Well, you also helped me on stage. Because I'd been speaking a lot and I thought I was an okay speaker. But I became one, I had some awkward body language and awkward expression things just coming from my own nervousness and insecurity.

Sari de la Motte:

Also a mindset fix there too. Yeah.

Michael Cowen:

Absolutely. And you also helped me become more dynamic as far as a range and control of energy and management of energy. And so I think a lot of it, I became a better speaker.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah.

Michael Cowen:

And then I think from there it went on to just, I'm just a happier-

Sari de la Motte:

Yes.

Michael Cowen:

I struggled with depression most of my life. And going back in life-

Sari de la Motte:

Me too.

Michael Cowen:

... it was pretty bad. I mean-

Sari de la Motte:

It could get dark.

Michael Cowen:

... I wish I would've known to ask for help back in my teens, 20s. But I actually no longer, according to my PhD therapist, no longer have a diagnosis of anything in the DSM.

Sari de la Motte:

Wow. That's kind of huge.

Michael Cowen:

Yes.

Sari de la Motte:

And what do you-

Michael Cowen:

With no medications.

Sari de la Motte:

And what do you attribute that to?

Michael Cowen:

Mindset.

Sari de la Motte:

Mindset.

Michael Cowen:

Changing the way I look at the world, changing the way I look at ... And it's a lot of work. And it's not a straight line and it's not every day. I'm not saying I don't have days where old habits come back, where the mindset's not perfect. But about 85% of the time I'm there.

Sari de la Motte:

That's amazing. I think when we were working together, you just had the three lawyers at your firm or maybe a handful. And you've grown so much. You also have this amazing podcast, but now you have this trucking symposium.

Michael Cowen:

Yeah, my Big Rig Bootcamp.

Sari de la Motte:

Big Rig Bootcamp. Tell us a little bit about that.

Michael Cowen:

Well, although I'm lucky enough to get to speak at different things. But one, I decided I don't ever want my brand and my ability to get myself out there to be dependent on some committee or popularity or-

Sari de la Motte:

Other people.

Michael Cowen:

... other people who may be jealous or may not like me about something. And so it was a struggle because at first I thought, who am I to have my own seminar?

Sari de la Motte:

And this is why I love this story because this shows the growth. Continue.

Michael Cowen:

Who am I to do that? And I decided, well, why not? And so I just did it. And now we had over 200 people last year.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah. And I think you started like 30 or 50 people?

Michael Cowen:

It started pretty small-

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah.

Michael Cowen:

... but it's built up and I just-

Sari de la Motte:

200 people. I mean, that's amazing.

Michael Cowen:

Yeah. We're going to be 250 this year.

Sari de la Motte:

That's amazing. When do you do this event?

Michael Cowen:

It's in July. Oh my gosh, BigRigBootcamp.com is where you can sign up. I think it's a Thursday. I have to look at my calendar.

Sari de la Motte:

Okay. So where can they go if they want some information on this?

Michael Cowen:

BigRigBootcamp.com.

Sari de la Motte:

BigRigBootcamp.com. We'll have that in the show notes too. And just tell us a little bit, is it a day long, three days?

Michael Cowen:

It's one day. Well, we have a party the night before if you want to come.

Sari de la Motte:

Oh fun.

Michael Cowen:

But it's at a really neat place. They actually have concerts and stuff there. It's a pretty big venue, so we have really good LED screens-

Sari de la Motte:

I saw that online.

Michael Cowen:

... a big stage.

Sari de la Motte:

I was like, look at this.

Michael Cowen:

Yeah. But the main seminar is one day and we do give ... I just really do a deep dive into trucking cases. This year we're going to have a little bit, because I've had requests for it, also how to present medical testimonies. So I'm going to give the theory and then we're going to bring a doctor and give a demonstration.

Sari de la Motte:

Lovely.

Michael Cowen:

So I think it's important to not just do a demonstration to show off, but you also want to give the practical. So here's the outline, what we're trying to do.

Sari de la Motte:

Oh my God. We don't need more war stories.

Michael Cowen:

Yeah. And then we break it up and like, I'm going to do this first and then we show you how to do it.

Sari de la Motte:

I love that. I love that.

Michael Cowen:

Yeah. So it's super practical. I give everything away as far as like, there's no secrets being held back. This is how we find roles, how we apply them, this is how we use them in this part of the trial, that part of the trial. And it's a lot of fun. People keep coming back. It gets bigger every year.

Sari de la Motte:

If someone's not a trucking lawyer, but they might be interested in doing trucking cases, should they come?

Michael Cowen:

Yeah, it's a great way to learn.

Sari de la Motte:

I love trucking cases. Oh my goodness. I love trucking cases.

Michael Cowen:

There's a great lawyer in Michigan, Bruce Inosencio. I don't know if you know him.

Sari de la Motte:

Bruce is in the crew.

Michael Cowen:

Okay, well-

Sari de la Motte:

He's an H2H member. I love his last name, Inosencio.

Michael Cowen:

I know, he should have been in criminal defense, right? But he tried a ... I think it was a nursing home or medical case and he got a great verdict. He sent me an email saying, "I actually used your book." And I said, "How did you use a trucking book to try that?"

Sari de la Motte:

Well, the book was the next thing I was going to ask you about. Yeah.

Michael Cowen:

And he said, "Well, because you gave the theory about creating a villain, getting roles, sourcing the roles, showing how they broke the roles." And by source, I mean, I call it anchor and got it for Rodney Jew, but I mean, just finding where does the rule come from. And he says, "I use the same technique." And so it's just instead of it being wheels, it was an institution.

Sari de la Motte:

Oh my gosh, I love that. Bruce, I think ... Have I had Bruce on a podcast? I don't remember, but Bruce is amazing-

Michael Cowen:

He is.

Sari de la Motte:

... and also a H2H crew member. The name of your book is?

Michael Cowen:

Big Rig Justice.

Sari de la Motte:

Big Rig Justice. And it's at Trial Guides. So then go to TrialGuides.com, a fellow author. You and I are both with Trial Guides. Another book to definitely get if you guys are interested in learning more about trucking. I love trucking cases.

What would you say, because this is what we hear a lot here, especially with people after the fact, because we don't hear it from people straight to our face. But they're like, "The mindset stuff, I wasn't really buying into that until I actually did it." And coached with either me or with Kevin. "And oh my gosh, sorry, it has changed everything." What would you say to a trial attorney who's like, "I don't know about this."

Michael Cowen:

I thought you were totally full of shit when we started this. Sorry.

Sari de la Motte:

See?

Michael Cowen:

I didn't buy it, I didn't want to buy it. I thought it was all voodoo, hocus pocus, pop psychology.

Sari de la Motte:

I love this.

Michael Cowen:

Absolutely. And I was just humoring you. And part of it, I just had to go through my journey with it.

Sari de la Motte:

That's right.

Michael Cowen:

Now I do a routine called the Miracle Morning almost every morning.

Sari de la Motte:

Yes. We talked about that book. I love that book.

Michael Cowen:

And so part of my morning is my affirmations. And when I'm in trial, I'm like, "I will win the Judy Kent case. No matter what, there is no other option."

Sari de la Motte:

Yes.

Michael Cowen:

So the judge can make whatever ruling she wants, those are the ground rules. I got to find a way to run under her rules. It's transformational.

Sari de la Motte:

So what would you say to a lawyer who's saying, "I don't know that I need mindset coaching." I mean, it's all about trial skills for me.

Michael Cowen:

Well, I say, try it. I don't want to say you're wrong because I don't know. I don't know you. I mean, I'll be honest with you, I know some lawyers that look at the world very differently than I do and try cases and workup cases very differently and they get great results.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah.

Michael Cowen:

I don't want their lives.

Sari de la Motte:

I was going to say, are they happy? I don't know.

Michael Cowen:

Some are, some aren't. And that's okay. And so there's more than one way to do things.

Sari de la Motte:

Sure.

Michael Cowen:

But this way has not only been professionally successful for me. But my life is so much better, I am so much happier. My personal relationships are better. My ability to let go and trust people, but have healthy relationships and healthy boundaries. Which really freed me up. Most of my life is doing what I love now. I mean, I don't answer discovery anymore. I don't defend depositions anymore. I don't have a docket anymore. I have great lawyers I work with and I come in and do big depositions and try cases. It's so fun.

Sari de la Motte:

I love it. I love it. You're living the life that a lot of lawyers want. And as we were talking about earlier in the seminar that you're here for, we tend to wait. We're like, "No, I have to have these big verdicts before I can do some of these things." And what you're proving is you changed your mindset first and then all the evidence showed up.

Michael Cowen:

Yeah. I mean, I had good verdicts, but not great.

Sari de la Motte:

Exactly.

Michael Cowen:

I had seven figure verdicts, but I didn't have an eight figure. And the other thing is I had to realize that it was okay for me not to answer discovery.

Sari de la Motte:

That's right.

Michael Cowen:

That it was okay for me not to defend a deposition that I somehow ... I don't have to do these things to play my part. I'm paying other people to do it. And other people like ... There's lots of people that don't really want to try cases.

Sari de la Motte:

That's right. That's right.

Michael Cowen:

And they would much rather be defending a deposition. I have a lawyer that works with me, she does three prep sessions with the client. It's great. I couldn't do it. I don't have the patience for it, but she's good at it and she likes it.

Sari de la Motte:

She loves it. Yeah. Yeah. So let her do it.

Michael Cowen:

Exactly.

Sari de la Motte:

I love this. And it's been such an honor to watch your trajectory and your ... I'm going to use the word transformation. You've absolutely transformed. I'm so glad I got to have even a little bit a part of that.

Michael Cowen:

And physically, mentally, everything. Yeah.

Sari de la Motte:

Everything. Everything. And that we've been friends all this time. It's just such an honor to have you here in the podcast and to watch you. So thank you for being here on the show.

Michael Cowen:

And thank you for continuing. I'm still learning from you and I'm trying to ... It's funny. And I guess ... Though you don't always see yourself the way other people see you. And so somebody at this workshop said, "I was wondering, why would Michael Cowen be here? He already knows how to try cases?"

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah.

Michael Cowen:

And I'm thinking, "Because I want to do it better."

Sari de la Motte:

That's right. And I see that that is the one thing I always see in people who are already good and always want to get better. You can't bottle that.

Michael Cowen:

Yeah.

Sari de la Motte:

You guys are the ones that keep showing up.

Michael Cowen:

Yeah. We had a $38 million verdict last month and I want to get better, I'm not satisfied.

Sari de la Motte:

That's fantastic.

Michael Cowen:

And not that I think there's anything wrong with me. I did have 24 hours where I didn't like a couple of things. But I know there's another level.

Sari de la Motte:

Well, I think ... And that's one thing too we talked about is that the fuel that a lot of trial attorneys think is the right fuel, is the fear, right? I'm going to beat myself up because if I don't beat myself up, then I'm going to get complacent and then I'll get lazy and then I won't ever do anything. And what I've seen so much with you is that that fuel has turned to love. Self-love primarily, love for the jury, love for the judge. May not always agree with what they decide, but that has changed everything for you. We have watched it, those of your friends and colleagues. It's been incredible.

Michael Cowen:

Yeah. So I'm hearing up because I think there's anything wrong with me-

Sari de la Motte:

That's right.

Michael Cowen:

... or that I don't have the skills. I can go try a case. But I also know that I love it and if I can get a little bit better, I'm going to love it even more.

Sari de la Motte:

That's right.

Michael Cowen:

And so I want to just keep working at it and getting better and better. And I appreciate your coaching on that.

Sari de la Motte:

Well, I just love you, my friend. Thank you so much.

Michael Cowen:

Love you too.

Sari de la Motte:

Okay. Well, we'll talk later. See you next week.

Ever wish you had a place to practice your trial skills and connect with other lawyers who get it? And connect with me? Grab your seat in the H2H playground. It's where you get real coaching community and strategies to actually grow your practice. Head to SariSwears.com/play and get enrolled. Until next time.