Sari Swears: Top Three Mindset Issues for Trial Lawyers

The year is winding down.

Trials are slowing.

Your brain is STILL going a mile a minute.

This week on Sari Swears, I’m joined by guest speaker Coach K for a conversation that feels like hitting the reset button before the new year.

We talk through the mindset traps that quietly wear trial lawyers down and what to do about them.

We Break Down:

👉🏽 Why chasing “100% prepared” keeps you stuck
👉🏽 How fear bloats your opening and blurs your story
👉🏽 Why isolation lies to you about everyone else having it together
👉🏽 How your saboteur plays its favorite holiday reruns
👉🏽 What it really takes to trust yourself again

If you’ve been carrying too much into this season, consider this your permission to put some of it down.

Tune in NOW! 🎧

Love,
Sari

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“Your saboteur is going to try to throw all these things at you that you’re never going to be able to achieve. You have to notice it showing up and say, ‘I know you’re here, but I don’t need that right now.’ It all starts with awareness—it starts with changing the way you think.”
coach k

Transcription

Sari:

But I think that saboteur uses that. It's the carrot that dangles in front of them saying, "Hey, this is possible. You can be 100% prepared" When that's not even an actual thing.

Kevin:

Well, and if that's the goal, then when you fuck up, your saboteur's like, "What the hell is your problem?"

Sari:

See? It's because you weren't 100% prepared.

Kevin:

Yup.

Sari:

You're listening to Sari Swears on the Sari Swears podcast. Well, welcome everyone. We are back with another episode of Sari Swears with Coach K, talking about some more mindset stuff. Today, we're talking about the top mindset issues for trial lawyers. The things that we see over and over and over again with our trial attorneys. We're going to give you some tools on how to overcome these issues. But these are things that we have found you all struggle with a lot. We'll also take some time at the end to share Kevin's, or we call him Coach K around here, his brand new coaching program that starts in January.

For those of you who want to absolutely have the most amazing 2026 of your life. Wait, that would be the only 2026 of their life, so I would say the best year of their life is what I probably should have said.

Kevin:

That's going to be an amazing one.

Sari:

Welcome, Kevin. How are you today?

Kevin:

I'm great. How are you?

Sari:

I'm good. I'm good. I'm going to put my feet up on your lap though because I'm sick of sitting the way I'm sitting.

Kevin:

That's fine.

Sari:

That way everybody can see my cool shoes.

Kevin:

Oh, aren't these cool?

Sari:

Because you're all going to ask, people ask about my glasses a lot. My glasses are Vicci, V-I-C-C-I. My shoes are Office of Angela Scott. Once I couldn't do heels anymore, I had to find some fun shoes. People always talk about my shoes, and these are amazing.

Kevin:

They're gorgeous. This is also a video podcast, that's why we're saying you can see them.

Sari:

That's right. If you just listen to me and you're normal, then you won't see them. But I guess there are some weirdos that watch podcasts. That's like the thing now.

Kevin:

I get it.

Sari:

If you want to see them-

Kevin:

It's just an extra sensory experience.

Sari:

Yeah. But a lot of you walk with me and I like that. If you're walking and say hi to my Chris, that's awesome and happy walking. Okay. I'm going to start with one that I see and hear about, I don't know what the word is, a lot. I'm going to say this is probably... I think they think this is their top issue. I don't know if it is the top mindset issue, but it comes up so much that I think we need to start with it, which is I am not 100% prepared. Do you hear this a lot with your coaching clients?

Kevin:

All the time.

Sari:

Okay. What do you hear? Let's flush this one out. What's the deal with this one?

Kevin:

Well, and it's down to so many things. If it's depositions, it's anything that they're doing. It's like, "Well, okay, I need these many hours or these many days for this thing because I really, really need to be prepared.

Sari:

And I don't have it.

Kevin:

I don't have it.

Sari:

And I'm freaking out about it.

Kevin:

I don't have enough time and I need to be 100% prepared. I need to be so dialed in on this. Then, we started to get into a conversation about, "Okay, well, what would it be like if you weren't? What if you were to just get a call and you had to show up to the courthouse and try a case within an hour? What would you do? Would you do it? Would you run away?" You'd say, "Of course, I'd do it." I say, "Okay, well, let's talk about that."

Sari:

Well, and not to mention that I've had the story told many times, "Oh, I was pulled into this case and I had no idea I was doing voir dire."

Kevin:

This is a big one.

Sari:

"It was the best voir dire I ever did."

Kevin:

It was amazing. I could not believe how I crushed it.

Sari:

Why do you think that is? Why do you think just, not that we're saying no one should ever prepare, but why do you think we hear that so often where it's like, "I didn't expect to be doing X or it was just thrown on me at the last minute and it was actually amazing." Why do you think they have a good experience there?

Kevin:

Well, the ones that have a good experience, I think what happens is they're just forced to be really, really present in the moment.

Sari:

Yes, that's a good point. Yes, absolutely. Instead of, in their brain, trying to remember all of the information they just shoved into it.

Kevin:

If you believe you're going to be 100% prepared, well, then you're just going to be focused on that. Then, if you make any mistake, it will fuck the whole situation. Instead, well, I don't have the things to be 100% prepared, so I just got to show up here.

Sari:

Yes. I like this very much. I think I want to have you on all the podcasts because I can have my feet up on you. The next step is to have foot massaging happening. All right. Here's the first thing though. Why is this a mindset problem? Because I think so many people think, well, I need... Oh, I can't have them on here?

Kevin:

Sorry, it's getting a little painful.

Sari:

Oh my God. I'm rude.

Kevin:

It's digging the heels into my leg. I'm sorry.

Sari:

Okay. Fine.

Kevin:

Massage will be later.

Sari:

Okay. Better have it. Okay. Why is this a mindset issue? Because I think most people believe, "Well, I should be 100% prepared. The fact that I'm not 100% prepared is a time management issue." How is this a mindset issue?

Kevin:

Well, it's a mindset issue because ready is a decision.

Sari:

Ooh, yes. Christian Morris said that, ready is a decision not a feeling.

Kevin:

That's why I love it. I use it all the time. Thank you, Christian Morris.

Sari:

Yes, ready is a decision, not a feeling.

Kevin:

Yeah, it is. If you can decide that I have prepared this much, you can plan it out. You can have this set up where you have your time blocked out in a way where this is how much I'm going to prepare for this. Then, I'm done and I'm moving on to the other thing, or trial is coming up and you decide at that moment, I am as prepared as I'm going to be, now I'm going to show up and be in trial.

Sari:

That's right. That's right. I think the big thing is that they believe that it is possible.

Kevin:

It's not. It's like perfection is possible.

Sari:

Yes.

Kevin:

We all think you're perfect and amazing. We love you so much, but-

Sari:

I don't think they're perfect, but I like them not being perfect.

Kevin:

I like to think of them as perfect because they just are. They're just so wonderful and perfect.

Sari:

They are wonderful. Yes. But I think that saboteur uses that. It's the carrot that it dangles in front of them saying, "Hey, this is possible. You can be 100% prepared." When that's not even an actual thing.

Kevin:

Well, and if that's the goal, then when you fuck up your saboteur's like, "What the hell's your problem?"

Sari:

See? It's because you weren't 100% prepared. Yup, so it's a losing case all the way around, which is why I love Christian Morris's quote there, which we use quite a bit, because it's a decision. It's something where you decide because, of course, we could prepare forever, we could keep preparing. There's an endless amount of things we could read and do. Speaking of the do piece though, I don't ever see them saying, and this about how much they should be practicing, they're not like, "Oh my gosh, I need to be 100% prepared on my feet." No, it's always something they're reading or having to know. If they're all-

Kevin:

I need to be 100% practiced.

Sari:

Right. They don't ever say that they need to be 100% practice. Not that I think that's a thing either, but if they were having to decide between shoving more information in their brain versus getting up on their feet and actually getting prepared that way, I'm going to say that's where they should spend their time.

Kevin:

Yup, that's why you don't sit and type out your opening, you get on your feet and fucking do it.

Sari:

That's right. That's right. How do they manage this mindset problem, the belief that they can be 100% prepared and that they should be 100% prepared? What would you say?

Kevin:

Well, I always go back to awareness first, because your saboteur is going to try to throw all these things at you that you're never going to be able to achieve or make you just not even go towards that thing to achieve. You have to just notice, you have to start noticing that those thoughts are showing up and that you don't go with that. You have to start saying, "Oh, looks like you showed up. I know you're here, saboteur. I don't need that right now." Then, start going towards the ready as a decision, but it starts with awareness, it starts with changing the way you think.

Sari:

Remind our listeners what a saboteur is.

Kevin:

Saboteur is that emotional backpack, that thing that's just on you from all the stuff that has happened to you, that it tries to keep you safe. It's part of your amygdala. I call it the hype man of the amygdala. It comes out when your amygdala is firing, out of fear, to try to keep you safe and it tells you all these things so that you don't do the thing that it's most fearful of.

Sari:

Well, and that's a really great point because the saboteur is normally based on something that's happened before or a fear of something happening. But I think so many attorneys have been in the situation where they were surprised at a trial about something that they forgot or didn't see coming around the corner.

Kevin:

They have to pivot at that time, but if your saboteur is all over you, what the hell are you going to do?

Sari:

But the saboteur then comes and says, "See, if you had been 100% prepared, this would never have happened." That brings us me to the second thing that I see all of the time, which is the reason why that happens, I believe, is because instead of getting super clear about their case and what their story is and trusting their story, they throw absolutely everything into their opening statement, into their case, because they're so afraid that they're going to miss something and then their opening and their case basically becomes this uncommunicable thing, it doesn't make any fucking sense.

Because we're so afraid that if I leave anything out, that's going to be the one thing that the defense is going to nail me on or that the jurors really wanted to see or so on and so forth. Do you see this too? Not only about preparation but, I can't leave anything out because I've got to make sure I put all of it in in case the one thing I leave out was the wrong thing to leave out.

Kevin:

Yeah. Well, and that's the difference between a two and a half hour opening and a 30-minute opening, like we train here.

Sari:

Yes.

Kevin:

Yeah, if you're worried about leaving something out, well, honestly think about it. The mindset there is, well, the jury is not going to catch hardly any of that shit that you're trying to feed to them that's two and a half hours.

Sari:

That's right.

Kevin:

If you keep it concise and you keep it in containers so that they can walk away, they can go back into that jury room and discuss the facts and the things that'll get them to come to an answer, instead of being completely overwhelmed with information.

Sari:

That's absolutely right. But I think they think, "Well, I could maybe win on three out of these 17 points, but if I only do the three points, then I'm really narrowing my chances of the things that I might win on." I think cognitively it makes logical sense, that's crazy. As Rick Friedman says, complexity, confusion, ambiguity, those are tools of the defense. We don't want to do that, but I think the reason it's a mindset issue is because of trust.

Kevin:

Yup.

Sari:

We don't trust our story and we don't trust ourselves to know what the right story is. Would you say that's true? Talk to me a little bit about the trust issues that they have.

Kevin:

Oh, yes. The trust issues are so much... If you think about it, if you're a solo practitioner and you started licking the stamps and putting the sign on the wall, because it was just you. Now, you have a larger team, you've got people that you can lean on, you can delegate, you can have them do other parts of trial that you don't want to do or depositions, things like that, but you were used to doing everything from the beginning. Well, the trust issue is that they might fuck it up, or I don't know if I can hand this off to somebody else. Then, you take on absolutely everything and you're completely overwhelmed.

But you have a team there waiting for you that can help you. The support is there. Because you don't trust, then you just continually do the same thing that you did back when you started your practice.

Sari:

Yeah. I think there's a trust piece there with the delegation, but I also think there's a trust piece with not understanding or pairing down the information that they're giving to the jury. I think part of that too is that they believe that they have to go it alone, which is probably the third mindset, top mindset issue, is that not only do I have to go it alone, but no one else is having the trouble that I'm having. Everyone else got this dialed in. Everybody else knows what they're doing. I'm the only one that's struggling.

Kevin:

Yeah. The imposter syndrome.

Sari:

The imposter syndrome, which we've found now is actually, because it's normally for women, it's a sexist term.

Kevin:

Okay. Well, I need to rephrase that.

Sari:

No, that's fine. That popped in my brain.

Kevin:

No, I want to rephrase that. What could we call that instead? Or, what do they say instead?

Sari:

I don't know. I really do think it's an isolated thing, is that because we're so isolated, many plaintiff attorneys, even in their own firms I think there's not a lot of sharing of I'm not sure, because we somehow have to show up as we've got all the answers. But talk to me about this whole isolation piece and believing that I have to go it alone and everybody else has it figured out except for me.

Kevin:

Well, yeah. We're talking about trust there, but then I just think about how the isolation piece, it's what they know, so they stick with what they know. Your saboteur is going to make you continue to... Anything new is scary. Then, what they're closing themselves off from is collaboration.

Sari:

That's right. We have found in Command the Courtroom, for example, a lot of the time when people come out for their two days here with us at the front of the room, we put them with each other. They're working with each other because that collective of... we've heard people say this too, working with other trial attorneys is something they don't do enough of. It's so important to get out of their mindset of, "I've got to do this by myself or I don't have time to collaborate." We've found that the collaboration is actually saving them time because they're getting better and better ideas. But do you think that on some level they're afraid of saying to other trial attorneys, maybe that, "I don't know what to do with this. I'm not sure which direction to take with this. "

Kevin:

Yeah, they'll get found out like, "Wait a minute, I'm not as good as them." Or, back to imposter syndrome, this is not the word we're using or this phrase, but back to just saying that I need to stay this certain way, I don't want to show other people that maybe I'm not capable of this.

Sari:

When was the last time you practiced your closing statement? No, the night before trial doesn't fucking count. Our Command the Courtroom closing masterclass is your chance to work with me in person on your active case and closing statement. Don't just take my word for it. Here's what PI Attorney Sean had to say about our two-day masterclass.

Sean:

My biggest takeaway is that I now have a new approach as to how I'm going to enter the courtroom. It's a new energy, a new spirit, and it really gets me excited because that's actually the more fun part of what we do. I'm looking forward to taking advantage of everything that I learned here.

Sari:

Registration for our closing statement masterclass is live. Join me for two full days, January 28th and 29th, for hands-on coaching through the H2H method. Seats are limited. What are you waiting for? Head to sariswears.com/closing. That's sariswears.com/closing to lock in your spot. See you in Portland. I think part of that too is because there's such a dog-eat-dog world out there in trial lawyering. Everything that they're seeing on the CLE stages are war story after war story after war story.

Sean:

Really good point.

Sari:

About how they won their last case and how they did it the right way. That was one of the fears that we were talking about too, is this sense of everybody has it all figured out or the reptile's the right way to do it or the trial by human is the right way to do it, or H2H is the right way to do it. There's really a lack of, again, we're back to the trust, of trusting what they believe is right for their own case. Talk about what they're seeing out in the world and how that is affecting their mindset.

Kevin:

Well, yeah, what you're talking about is going to the CLEs and things like that, but if it's a dependency model, then they don't feel like they can trust or do it themselves.

Sari:

Oh, say more about the dependency model.

Kevin:

Well, okay, so we like to really foster the fact that you know your case the best.

Sari:

You are the expert.

Kevin:

You're the expert and you come here and we just help you show up the best you as possible. But out in the community so much, the way that training and things that are with attorneys is that you don't know. You don't know. We know. If you come to us, we will teach you.

Sari:

Don't try this without asking us.

Kevin:

Don't try anything else. Don't deviate.

Sari:

In fact, we'll take your case over for you.

Kevin:

Exactly.

Sari:

Because you're too stupid to try it yourself. I'm sorry. I hate that shit.

Kevin:

It's really counter to what we believe.

Sari:

Yes. If we look at the top three mindset things, I have to be 100% prepared, and I'm not. That's a thing that is achievable and I'm not doing it. What was our second one? Our second one was... Oh, my gosh, now I forgot what our second one was.

Kevin:

We were 100% prepared. There's the trust issue, and then the isolation.

Sari:

Isolation.

Kevin:

There we go.

Sari:

Yes. How, again, do they overcome these issues in their lives? The first one, you already talked about, but let's talk about how to trust their story, how to trust themselves, how to trust their instincts. How do they develop that trust in themselves so they can get out of that mindset of, "Oh my gosh, I've got to throw everything in my opening." Or, "Oh my gosh, I've got to do X, Y, Z because otherwise I'm going to lose."

Kevin:

They have to take risks. They have to play.

Sari:

I love your answer.

Kevin:

They have to do all the things.

Sari:

They have to just try.

Kevin:

They have to try. We look at it as plays because so much of the time when you're with us, it is approached that way because you play here and then when you go out to trial, you work all the shit out here, you go out to trial and then you really show up, but you can play here. You can really play and work it out. It's this learner's brain, this on your feet learner's activity, this science experiment, if you want to call it, but it's in a very playful nature. You jump, you leap, you risk, you play, it's fun, it's exciting, but this is the practice so that you will go and do the things, and not just stay inside your small office and never leave and read your briefs.

Sari:

Well, the reason I love that answer is because you're very cute today. But the other reason I love that answer is because people want a shortcut. They're like, "How do I trust myself?" I'm like, "You got to test that shit." You have to actually go and decide, "Hey, I want to try this." Again, something that you have tried out or thought through, not just take from somebody else and go do it because they told you to do it. Something where it's resonating with you, you're really like, this feels like the right thing to me. You have to go out there and you've got to test that and you have to see that, even if it doesn't turn out right, that you can handle it.

If it does turn out right, great, you're going to learn from that as well. That's the thing I forgot to say the last time we podcasted together, is that this whole concept of, they learn more from their failures than their success, which is bullshit. The research has shown we learn more from our success by building on it, but they got to test that shit. The way that you have trust in yourself, the way that you do or that I do, I remember when we first started, you were terrified to be thrown in front of our clients. You're like, "Who am I to be talking to trial attorneys?" I was like, I just kept throwing you in, I'm like, "Figure it out." Because that's the way I like to train people.

Kevin:

Yeah. Exactly.

Sari:

Figure it out. Now, you're like, "Yeah, I can do this." But it's not something I could have been like, "You know what? You have to have trust." Because you didn't have trust, until you tested it.

Kevin:

You have to prove this to yourself.

Sari:

That's right.

Kevin:

You don't have to prove this to others. You prove this to yourself, you continue to prove this to yourself, and you grow from that.

Sari:

That's right. Good or bad, and we don't even say good or bad. We're like, win or lose. Both of those are neutral. It feels better to win, but both of those are neutral outcomes, really. You just have to keep going out there and trusting yourself. I know people have come in and said, "Hey, sorry, I know you say to do this in the opening, but I'm really feeling this." I'm like, "Great, let's go for it then." Or I'll say, "Well, if you do it that way, you have to think about this and this and that." But it's all about trusting yourself. That's why when I hear people go, "You can't trust your instincts."

It makes me want to just fork myself in the eyeball. Like, stop telling attorneys that. They already worry about trusting themselves. I think that's the one thing you have left, is yourself and you're trusting yourself. Okay.

Kevin:

Well, and the instincts piece, if you're on your feet and you're working through this stuff and you're playing around with it, all that stuff lives in your body.

Sari:

That's right.

Kevin:

Those instincts are going to show up.

Sari:

You're testing it and trying it and doing it.

Kevin:

Exactly, and you're collaborating with others and like, "Wait, hold on a second. I heard you say that, but what about this?" These ideas just start flowing. The collaboration is such a huge thing.

Sari:

Which is our third thing. How do you get out of the mindset of, "I got to go it alone because I'm the only one struggling and everybody else has it figured out." The answer to that is collaboration.

Kevin:

Yeah, start doing it.

Sari:

Do it.

Kevin:

Yeah, I have a client that they were like, "I'm in this small office and it's weird. I'm working on these big cases, but I'm in this tiny little office right now. I don't know what to do. It's really affecting my mindset and the way I'm approaching things." We just started talking and they're like, "You know what? I'm going to break down these walls. Actually, there's another space on the other side." They literally-

Sari:

Literally breaking a wall.

Kevin:

... broke down walls and they opened up the space. Once they did that, they realized in this office space that they're in, in the building, there were a bunch of other like minded attorneys. They started collaborating with other attorneys and all of this started happening and it started with, I was in this small isolated space. Well, what do I do? I break down some walls. Next thing you know, I'm working with a bunch of different attorneys on different cases and we're collaborating. But you can start from that place and you can expand out into something really, really huge. It just takes you to take those risks, and do it.

Sari:

Well, and I think that's why the H2H crew exists, because it's magical. Wouldn't you say it's magical here? Coming into the courtroom, even more so than online. But when people get together and the ideas that they come up with and the way they support each other, people continue to say, somebody just said it the other day, they're like, "I love this community you've created because we can take risks here. We can try things and we get so much support and love from you and from Kevin and from each other." That's a place to start. In fact, we were just talking about what we are going to be doing, and I've been threatening this for a long time, we're going to be doing group dynamics.

I'm going to be teaching group dynamics, how to form your group, how to identify members of your group. We're going to be talking about cats and dogs. I'm going to be forming an actual jury in front of your very eyes live in Q1. Get in the crew, go to H2H, or sorry, go to sariswears.com/play if you want to join the crew and get some of this collaboration. But before we go, I want to make sure that you learn a little bit more about Kevin's brand new coaching program that starts in January as well. Tell us about that.

Kevin:

Yeah. I have a new program I'm doing and it's a curated coaching program where we meet together in the first session. It's a longer session and we really, really define and shore up your goals and what exactly-

Sari:

And what's getting in your way.

Kevin:

Exactly, and what's getting in your way. Then, all of the stuff that Sari and I have pulled together over the years, tools and different ways to coach. I take those tools and I focus them on your specific goals and we create a program that is designed just for you.

Sari:

Then, there are some bonuses as well.

Kevin:

There's bonuses. Yeah. I have a 90-

Sari:

And there's more.

Kevin:

There's more. I have a 90-minute call that I'll be doing with all my clients and we'll be focusing on topics of the month that are around all kinds of different issues and money and time and things that we deal with, letting go of the outcome. But we work with it all together and there's group coaching and then teaching and that. That's just an added bonus you get with the program.

Sari:

You can drop in or not.

Kevin:

Yeah, you can drop in or not. It's optional. Then, in addition, we're talking about these in-person things. Well, there's a two-day mindset retreat that's going to be awesome.

Sari:

Yes.

Kevin:

The cool thing is that these drop-ins that you're doing into this 90-minute call, well, these same people will be coming out here to do the two-day retreat.

Sari:

They're going to get this program that's designed to help them overcome their obstacles by meeting with you as their coach twice a month. They can drop in on these group calls to learn about money, time management, overwhelm, all the things.

Kevin:

Yeah, all kinds of things.

Sari:

Then, they get to come out for a two-day retreat.

Kevin:

Yeah.

Sari:

That sounds pretty awesome.

Kevin:

It's going to be a fucking fantastic program.

Sari:

You can go to sariswears.com/coaching and there you can even get a sample session with Kevin if you want to check it out or just ask some questions, but that starts in January. Get going and get enrolled in that program. Well, it's been fun having you so many times here.

Kevin:

It's been a lot of fun.

Sari:

Let's do some more of this in 2026.

Kevin:

Definitely.

Sari:

Sorry, my feet are so heavy.

Kevin:

It was the heels.

Sari:

They're not even heels.

Kevin:

You were digging the wood into my shins.

Sari:

Okay, whatever. Jesus.

Kevin:

I'll make it up to you.

Sari:

Love you all. Talk to you soon. Goodbye. Ever wish you had a place to practice your trial skills and connect with other lawyers who get it and connect with me? Grab your seat in the H2H Playground. It's where you get a real coaching community and strategies to actually grow your practice. Head to sariswears.com/play and get enrolled. Until next time.