Sari Swears Podcast: How Secondary Trauma May Be Holding You Back

Have you ever felt COMPLETELY drained by this work… even when everything is technically “going fine”?

Not just tired, but heavy?

That’s exactly what we’re talking about this week on Sari Swears and Coach K is back with me for this episode.

We’re diving into secondary trauma — the kind you absorb from:

👉🏽 The cases
👉🏽 The injuries
👉🏽 The families
👉🏽 The devastation

It doesn’t just affect your health…It can quietly limit your damages in the courtroom.

If you’ve been feeling exhausted, disconnected, overwhelmed, or like you’re always just pushing through — this episode WILL hit home.

Tune in NOW! 🎧

Love,
Sari

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“Secondary trauma is when you take on trauma that didn’t happen to you directly. You absorb what your clients have gone through — the cases, the deaths, the injuries — and that weight really sits on you. Even though it didn’t happen to you, your body still carries it.”
Coach K

transcription

Sari de la Motte:

It all clicked for me last week. The reason why, we can say that it's because we're overwhelmed or we don't have time or all the things, I believe now it's this secondary trauma that there's something, a protective piece that is not allowing our clients to go there, and so they don't, and then we get these lower damages at trial.

You're listening to Sari swear on the Sari Swears podcast. Let's get into it.

Well, welcome to another episode of Sari Swears. Today I'm here with a special guest, Coach K. Many of you have said that you love when he's on the podcast, and so I've allowed him to return.

Kevin de la Motte:

Yeah. Thanks for letting me show up and hang out.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah, it's fine. No, joking. We're talking about some mindset stuff for some episodes here at the end of the year. And we're also here because Kevin has a brand new program that he wants to let all of you in on, so we'll talk about that a little bit later because all of you should be getting coaching for sure. But the thing we wanted to be talking about today is the concept of secondary trauma, so let's get right into it. Secondary trauma, what is that? What is secondary trauma?

Kevin de la Motte:

Secondary trauma is when you... Well, I'll use the example of trial attorneys, attorneys when they're with their clients on a regular basis and the cases that come across their desks and all the different traumatic experiences that they absorb. That secondary trauma, it doesn't have to be the direct trauma that you have experienced, but you can take on other traumas, clients, all the other cases that you do, and that can really put a lot of weight on you.

Sari de la Motte:

We should probably back up a little bit and talk about what trauma is in itself. And I think also for those of you who don't know who Coach K is, he is our lead mindset coach, our director of programming services here at H2H, and also his number one job is being married to me, which is probably his most difficult job. But let's talk about-

Kevin de la Motte:

Piece of cake.

Sari de la Motte:

Piece of cake? Okay. Well, I'll remind you of that later. Let's talk about what trauma is. We're trauma informed here at H2H, and what I mean by that is we are not therapists. Obviously, we are both certified mindset coaches and we are trained to recognize trauma, and trauma's been a big buzzy thing lately in the world in general.

And so when we think about trauma, I think most of our clients, when we say, "That sounds like trauma."

They're like, "I wasn't chained in my basement and beaten." We think of trauma in those types of ways, but what is trauma? Let's start there, and then we can come back to the concept of secondary trauma.

Kevin de la Motte:

Trauma is very different from just emotional difficulties. Trauma, it lives in the body. So you have an experience that happens to you. Let's call it an event and it can be a very traumatic event. It can also be just mildly traumatic, but it gets stuck there. And when it gets stuck there, it can show up in all kinds of ways and it can blindside you. That's what PTSD is. There's regular PTSD standard and then complex. We don't have to go that far into it, but basically it lives in the body so you can be somewhere and all of a sudden, "Why am I acting like this? Or why do I feel this way? Or what happened?"

And someone can even say to you, like a friend or family member, "What happened there? What's going on with you?" And you can't quite articulate or think of it logically, but you feel it and it does not feel good at all.

Sari de la Motte:

I think that's the big difference, right? The differentiator is it's something that you feel and you're not sure why you're feeling a certain way or why you're acting a certain way because as you said, it gets stuck, meaning it's not processed out. Talk about the difference then, and I know you're not an expert and neither am I, but we're just having a chat here about trauma because we both have experienced trauma. What would you say is the difference between something one would struggle with normally that might be difficult to manage versus trauma?

Kevin de la Motte:

Yeah. I'm not an expert, but both Sari and I've done a lot of research around this, and we've both had trauma therapy and had clients with trauma. And really, the difference is there's cognitive behavioral therapy where you can talk through it, think through it with a therapist, and that's one thing. It's done logically with your brain.

And then there is trauma therapy, and the difference is you have to actually go to a therapist that can help you work through it physically in your body and there's bilateral stimulation, things that they do, but it's all in here rather than thinking through it. To work through it, to process it out, you have to actually do things and techniques that help you release that from your body.

Sari de la Motte:

As you were talking, I was thinking about what is the difference between I'm going to therapy, or I'm talking to my coach about an issue that I'm struggling with and trauma. And I think the difference in my mind, and probably a therapist listening to this would be like, "You're completely wrong."

But just the top of my mind is that the reason trauma I guess gets stuck in the first place is because we aren't able to process it in some way. I'm thinking about the trauma that both you and I have experienced in our lives, you from traumatic bullying as a child and me growing up in domestic violence. As a child, you don't know how to process it out and so it just gets stuck so I think that's why it's not something. And I think the other way is that we don't necessarily see the thing as traumatic, like what we're talking about today with secondary trauma, so we don't know that we need to process it out. Would you agree with that?

Kevin de la Motte:

Definitely. It's downplayed. And especially if you're in a profession like being a trial attorney, and you're working with these cases that are very traumatic and these clients that have been through some heavy stuff, you think to yourself, whatever I've gone through, it's nothing like that.

Sari de la Motte:

This is a job.

Kevin de la Motte:

It's just part of the job.

Sari de la Motte:

Seen it forever for 20 years.

Kevin de la Motte:

But you can still be tamping that down and it can show up in all kinds of ways that aren't great. You can really be startled in your life by it.

Sari de la Motte:

I know for me, one reason why I went into trauma-based therapy is because my coach finally said, "Hey, we've been talking about this thing for a long time." And that to her was a sign that it was, I mean, it was just stuckness. Anytime you're stuck on anything, we can trace it back to maybe a traumatic origin.

What I don't want our listeners to get stuck, to use that word in, is defining whether they have trauma or they don't have trauma. And because I think there's a lot of, "Well, I don't know that I want to label it that."

And so I guess what I want to say is we're not going to label it necessarily, it's not important that we label it. I just wanted to give some verbiage to it, some words to it. But what we are talking about today is the concept of secondary trauma, and I think it does definitely fall into the realm of, I don't know that I'm being traumatized by this, but it is showing up. At least you and I can see it, and it was something that just happened in our opening seminar that I thought was very interesting, which made me want to do this seminar so when we're talking about secondary trauma, Kevin is absolutely right. We're talking about trauma that hasn't happened to you necessarily.

You aren't the one that got hit by the 18-wheeler or was bullied as a child, but it's something that happens to someone else that you are near and have to see on the regular. And that is definitely our trial lawyers, right? They are always dealing with death, broken bodies, broken families, mental issues, brain injuries. How do you see this showing up in your coaching with clients? And I'll talk about how I've seen it show up in terms of trial skills.

Kevin de la Motte:

The main way I see it showing up is just the approach of just pushing through. Just always, "Oh, well, yeah, okay. I just got to move on to the next thing. This is part of my job. Let's just get over it, move on to the next thing," and that is a tamping down.

And what the side effect of that can be a lot of times is just feeling extremely overwhelmed and not ever doing anything for yourself to take care of yourself, not practicing self-love, not even stopping exercising or doing even simple things that really help you feel better in your life, that relax you, that soothe you. A lot of it's self-soothing, but instead you drink, you do things of this nature that are a quick, easy button instead of doing things that could actually really help you process these kinds of experiences out.

Sari de la Motte:

Well, I think that's an interesting point that you brought up because I think most of our clients are overwhelmed or think they're overwhelmed just because there's so much to do. And that's part of it, for sure. But I do think that, and I hadn't thought about that before, that just the nature of what they're doing, not just the actual human cost that the defendant has created in their plaintiff's lives or their client's lives, but the fact that they're in such a combative scenario dealing with defense counsel and doing all the things that they're doing, that all of that is traumatic. We talk about medical trauma.

I mean, I had medical trauma from going through all of my treatment with cancer, and so there's all kinds of things I think we don't think about that actually end up... Many times you have said to me, "Well, of course you're feeling X because you went through this whole thing."

But for me, I was very much like my clients where I'm like, "Well, it's over now. I'm done. I'm done with cancer, so onward."

And you're like, "I don't think that's how that works." So I think that's a great point is that part of the overwhelm is coming from the trauma of the job, not just the amount of work they have to do.

Kevin de la Motte:

Yeah. I mean, it's all part of it. They all come together in a certain way, but the main thing is there is a real culture in being an attorney and being a trial attorney that you just move on to the next thing and there's no time and there's lots of things that are going on and you have to be professional for your clients. You have to show up in a certain way. You have to show up in a certain way in front of opposing counsel and co-counsel. Everything is this-

Sari de la Motte:

Judge.

Kevin de la Motte:

Yeah, this certain kind of way that you have to show up to be professional and to be a proper trial attorney. And what happens is there's so much that's left behind so that you can be the best version of yourself and healthy and live a healthy life, be happy, enjoy trial again. Instead, you just push, push, push.

Sari de la Motte:

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Sean:

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Sari de la Motte:

Registration for our closing statement masterclass is live. Join me for two full days, January 28th and 29th for hands-on coaching through the H2H method. Seats are limited, so what are you waiting for? Head to sariswears.com/closing. That's sariswears.com/closing to lock in your spot. See you in Portland.

Well, and I think too, that we have to bring in the concept or the truth that most of our clients have families of their own. And so when you are dealing with a case where a child has died or a spouse has died or someone that was loved and operated in a certain way is now unable to operate the way they used to because of a brain injury, I think what our trial attorneys do is they wall up, which is very natural. They shut down because very much like defensive attribution, I'm just thinking now that our jurors do the same thing where they think, "Well, I would've made a different decision or I would've done X, Y, Z," even though they wouldn't have, but they blame our plaintiff because they want to keep themselves safe. I think our trial attorneys, the way that they handle all of the mayhem that they're seeing on the regular is by walling something off inside themselves. Do you see that in your work with trial attorneys?

Kevin de la Motte:

I just thought of a really great example of a particular client that I have and I've asked if it's okay as long as I don't use their name and there's confidentiality, but just that an experience that they had regularly that really affected them because of the cases they were doing and it related to their family.

This one client I had was working on these really, really intense trucking cases, and there were a lot of extremely horrible deaths and awful things that were happening in these cases. And he was multiple cases at a time and extremely busy, and he would get in the car with his kids and the kids would be in the back seat of the car and he'd be driving and then all of a sudden he would get this wave of fear that would just wash over him and he would have to pull off to the side of the road and he realized because he was alongside a truck or something that was related to his cases. And he had these just huge events that he would have to... And his kids would be like, "Is everything okay, daddy? What's going on?"

And it was all because he was using this compartmentalization to protect, but at the same time, there was none of this offletting of the secondary trauma.

Sari de la Motte:

Processing it out. That's a perfect example of what we mean by secondary trauma. And all of you all have absolutely ruined me too, because I can't be on the road with an 18-wheeler or see anything now that's dangerous. There's danger everywhere, but thank God for our trial lawyers making the world safe. That's what you do.

Kevin de la Motte:

That's right.

Sari de la Motte:

That's a perfect example of what we're talking about. There's an example in my personal life. Now, where I was seeing it last week in our opening command of the courtroom opening seminar, our masterclass, is in our template, there are various times where we want the attorney to go all in on the damages or the actual, what caused the damage. For example, in our causation piece in the template where we were finding as we were working from room to room, you and I, when they were in small groups, that they would say things like, "Well, and then the tree branch fell on her and that broke her back," or whatever.

And I was like, "Well, but how?" I kept saying, "But how did it do it? I want you to pull it all the way through," was my language. "So I want you to tell me when this happened, it caused this thing that then caused that thing."

And I found that I was having to say that to every single group that we were working with. And then when we got to the damages, it was the same thing. It was this glossing over of the actual thing that we were talking about, just very general terms. And then I started thinking about all of the years that I've worked with trial attorneys. This has been true across the board that I am always, liability all day, every day, right? Because that's our piss off point. We can get in there. We can talk about this horrible thing that they did and how stupid it was that they did this and it was all for money.

But the minute we go to damages and we have to talk to our clients and really get in there, I'm like, "Have you talked to your client? Do you know?"

"Well, I haven't really." This is the answer we kept getting and I thought it all clicked for me last week.

The reason why, we can say it's because we're overwhelmed or we don't have time or all the things. I believe now it's this secondary trauma that there's something, a protective piece that is not allowing our clients to go there. And so they don't. And then we get these lower damages at trial because we've skimmed over. We haven't really actually walked our clients all the way, or walked our jury all the way through what happened to our plaintiff because of some subconscious... I don't think they're doing it on purpose, but on some subconscious level, we don't go there. What do you think about my theory?

Kevin de la Motte:

Well, I was just thinking, so I totally agree, but I was just thinking also in-

Sari de la Motte:

Good, you better.

Kevin de la Motte:

When we were-

Sari de la Motte:

As in all things.

Kevin de la Motte:

Oh, of course. But when we were doing that training and we were going through and coaching, especially when it came to the time where, and this has happened so many times when we've coached with attorneys on acting out the characters and really going all in storytelling, is that they jump outside and they narrate. They do it so much because they don't want to go all in and be-

Sari de la Motte:

And be that person.

Kevin de la Motte:

And they're in that situation and they're showing up like that. They put that wall up so they don't have to. But the thing is, if you don't go all in, then the jury doesn't get that feeling that you want them to get.

Sari de la Motte:

That's right.

Kevin de la Motte:

That raises the damages.

Sari de la Motte:

That's right. I think that the issue is that nobody wants to go all in, right? The jurors don't want to go there, the attorney doesn't want to go there. And unfortunately, that is how we get the damages. And I think we also hear, especially with storytelling, that it's too dramatic, it's too showy. And I think those are also words for, "I don't want to go there."

And what I continually remind my clients too, outside of the secondary trauma piece, is that you have to go there because what you're doing is creating a human process in a scenario that's very cold and calculating. The system of trial and court is very heady and cognitive. And what you're saying is this case isn't heady and cognitive. In fact, all of your cases, all plaintiff cases are about people and about damage and about families and about love. And if we don't go there, we can't communicate that to the jury and we can't take them there.

Obviously, the answer isn't to be like, "Well, this is causing trauma, so let's not do it, or let's wall up from it," because I think that is what they naturally do. What is the answer? Knowing that they are being traumatized in this secondary way and they have no choice but to continue to be traumatized, what's the answer? How do they do this, but also protect their own psyches? What's your answer to that?

Kevin de la Motte:

Well, if we go back to the body and how it gets trapped in the body, right? There's a book called Body Keeps the Score. That is brilliant.

Sari de la Motte:

Yes. Fantastic.

Kevin de la Motte:

And it's on every single therapist's bookshelf. It's all about trauma. And one of the biggest things that they say in there, which comes up multiple times in different chapters is about yoga and meditation and things of these natures. And what is so powerful about that is you're able to... If you can be in some kind of a practice where you can be with your body, I know that might sound kind of weird, but.

Sari de la Motte:

All of our male trial attorneys are like, "I'm always with my body." Gross.

Kevin de la Motte:

Yeah. If you can actually quiet everything and just be still and be with that, all kinds of things can show up and it can be too much. It can be all consuming. But if you can get into a practice where you can just be still and be able to start releasing that tension, start releasing those things that are trapped in there, yoga's one of them. Meditation's another, exercise, all kinds of things that you can do, out walking in nature. I mean, there's so many things you can do that you can get presents and you can start to offload all of these different emotions.

Sari de la Motte:

Well, that's a good point that you bring up because I also had a client who was in, I don't know, a yoga class or meditation, I can't remember what it was. And as they were in and they were away, they were in a resort somewhere, right? They couldn't literally stay still. And they got up and went back to their room and called their assistant and was like, "I need to get out of here. I need to get back to work."

And their assistant thankfully was like, "Okay, hold on. Are we really doing this?"

And when they were sharing this with me in a coaching, and again, I have permission to share without the name, I said, "That's trauma. That sounds like trauma."

And I think a lot of our trial attorneys, yes, again, coming back to the concept of they have a lot to do for sure. But I also have to wonder if many of them are constantly running, running, running, running, and busy all the time from morning until night and every weekend, because when they get still, it's almost like all of this wants to jump out, it becomes really present.

And so to your point, often what we tell our clients, what we told back in our damages seminar in October is that you have to process out the trauma. When you are seeing that day in and day out, it isn't easy to just sit and start meditating because it all comes up. You have to have some practice to process it out. Now that could be a variety of things. As you mentioned, it could be walking. I know for you, because you're having this secondary trauma as well as a coach, you're hearing about all of these things, that you often play your drums to transition from work to home.

Kevin de la Motte:

When you say transition, transitions are really important.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah. Let's talk about that for a minute. We talk about it as a purposeful transition. So what do most trial attorneys do when they get home?

Kevin de la Motte:

Well, I mean, a lot of my clients, I ask them, I say, "Yeah, how do you transition from work to home?" So that you can put the lawyer stuff aside and just be home with your family or whatever.

Sari de la Motte:

Their answer is?

Kevin de la Motte:

Their answer is I sit in the car and I listen to legal podcasts and I-

Sari de la Motte:

They better be listening to this one. We'll let that one go by.

Kevin de la Motte:

That's fine.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah.

Kevin de la Motte:

Yeah. And then I just basically, I'm on the phone with clients or I'm on the phone with different people.

Sari de la Motte:

Or I grab dinner and then I go right to my home office.

Kevin de la Motte:

Right away. But generally, there's no proper transition where the drumming for me is a way to, I can process out stuff, but then I can also transition from work to home.

Sari de la Motte:

That's right.

Kevin de la Motte:

Having something like that, even if you were to listen to something, a podcast, but it'd be completely different from what you were doing, and that's the thing that you do and you are intentional. When I leave work, I do this, and that means I'm no longer at work anymore and I'm going to my home or whatever it is. You need to be intentional about it. If it's just an offhanded thing that you do, it's just going to be more of the same.

Sari de la Motte:

Well, obviously we think that attorneys shouldn't be working at night, and they shouldn't be working on the weekends. And if you're listening to this, you're like, "Well, ha, ha, ha."

I'm telling you, my masterminds have all gotten to the point where they don't do that anymore, because they've just gotten much better with their boundaries and delegating and all the other things, which is not what this podcast is about.

Kevin de la Motte:

Although there's this season's thing where trial's a season.

Sari de la Motte:

Absolutely. Trial's a season, we're not talking about that. But for me, the minute I step into the house, it's pajama time. I don't care if it's 2:00 in the afternoon. It's pajama time. And that's my transition from work to home. I don't work once I come back home. It's very rare that you and I work once we're in our house. In fact, getting our offices this year was a nice transition because when we worked at home, that was harder. It was messier. We were still pretty good about it, but it was messier.

Kevin de la Motte:

We're tougher to unplug.

Sari de la Motte:

And right now, we're even trying to have even more boundaries where we're like, "We don't even talk about work until we're in the car," then it's a free space, drive into work or driving home. We can talk about it then. And of course, while we're here, but once we-

Kevin de la Motte:

When it happens, "Hey, we don't talk about that right now."

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah, we don't talk about that right now. When you're married to each other, it's hard not to talk about work when you work together, but-

Kevin de la Motte:

Especially when you love your work.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah, for sure. I think that purposeful transition, whether that's a shower or a bath or a walk or drumming or putting on different clothes is huge. But I also have to say that I think every single, and Rick Freeman will agree with me that every single trial attorney needs to have a therapist.

Kevin de la Motte:

I agree.

Sari de la Motte:

And a coach, I'm going to suggest. They're very different.

Kevin de la Motte:

They work beautifully in tandem.

Sari de la Motte:

They absolutely work beautifully in tandem. We both have coaches-

Kevin de la Motte:

Coaches and therapists.

Sari de la Motte:

... and therapists because trial lawyering is a huge fucking mindfuck. And if you're trying to do this alone and you're struggling, and I know what you're doing, if you're doing it alone and you're struggling, you're blaming yourself and you're thinking, well, nobody else is struggling. Everybody else is struggling. Everybody else is struggling. It's not just you. It's the people who are wise about it and have that support, because I think the other thing that happens is you either go it alone or you're dumping all over your spouse or your loved ones and you don't want to do that either. This work is hard, y'all. It is so hard.

And so I think the big thing that we want you to get out of this episode is that if you're struggling, and you're probably struggling because this work is hard, it's not your fault. It's most likely due to the secondary trauma of this job, the mangled bodies, the death, all of that, not to mention just the adversarial nature of it. And you need support, whether that's through therapy, through coaching, you need to have those practices in your life of yoga, meditation, exercise, and you need to have that purposeful transition that we've been talking about.

Kevin de la Motte:

Well, and there's also, there's the start of your day.

Sari de la Motte:

Rituals.

Kevin de la Motte:

Yeah, there's rituals. I mean, there's transitional pieces to that, but once I start doing my, I call it my spiritual practice or it's... I'm trying to remember what I call it. My therapist had a specific name for it, but basically it's a ritual that I do every single morning. I get up early, there's nobody out. It's just me and the dog. And we hike the trail for two miles and it's quiet, I can do a walking meditation. I go out to the water. It's woo-woo. I set my intention, I do all that stuff.

Whatever you decide to do, but it needs to be something that's just for you. It starts your day in a certain way, and it clears out all that mental clutter because, Sari, you do your morning pages to clear out the mental clutter. What it is, I was talking to a client about this, I think it was yesterday, the day before, is that you need to think about the way that you approach your practice and your life like the way that professional athletes do. You have to clear out anything that will clog up bandwidth. You need to have all of that cleared out because you are in so many situations where it's like that one shot that you have to be so focused and that's all you got. And if there's anything in the way of that, well, as you know, bad things can happen. These are all the things that clear out that space so that you can really be open to so much that you take on every day.

Sari de la Motte:

It's so funny, I was just telling my client the other day too about that, which is, "You got to get so clear on the energy sucks in your life because we don't think of them as email."

It was talking about email and I said, "Just delegate that shit to your assistant so that they only come in with the stuff you need to see, because we tend to think, 'Well, it's no big deal email, but it's one little sucker fish.' And then, 'Oh, it's no big deal. I can do that myself,' another sucker fish. Until you're just covered with all this little energy sucks."

Kevin de la Motte:

It's not just that, it's the energy suck, but it's also opposing counsel sending you an email and then you're firing away.

Sari de la Motte:

You're raging.

Kevin de la Motte:

You're raging, and it's just totally fucked your day, and you're so jacked just because of something that was sent to you via email that you responded to.

Sari de la Motte:

Yes, so they need to be much better about that. Secondary trauma is real, y'all, and there are things that you can be doing to process it out. Those are those regular mornings, and both Kevin and I have a morning and an evening ritual. There's spiritual practices, there's exercise, there's that purposeful transition, but I'm highly, highly going to encourage you to find a trauma-informed therapist that is different from cognitive behavioral therapy. And so you can just go to Psychology Today, psychology.com I think, and they've got a list of-

Kevin de la Motte:

Psychology Today, yeah.

Sari de la Motte:

... of people in your area, but you have a, it's not a trauma, it's trauma informed, but it's not based on trauma. But for those of you looking for a coach, Kevin has a new coaching program that will be starting in January that you are very excited about. And so tell us a little bit about how that program is going to work.

Kevin de la Motte:

Yeah. The program, it's a curated coaching program that I'm going to be able to tailor to every specific client, so we'll have a first coaching session that's longer where you come in and we look at all your goals and all the things that you want to do in this coaching time that we're together and I tailor it specifically to those goals. And then we have so many tools and so many things that we use in coaching so I can look at all the different pieces and tools that I'll use, and then I can tailor it straight to your goals. It's this situation where it's not just the hour coaching each the two times a month, it's being able to really, really focus on those specific goals, and I have a program that follows it to each particular client.

Sari de la Motte:

I love that. They'll sign up for this program, and they'll get to coach with you twice a month as their one-on-one coach. And then they'll also be able to join a group call where you guys will be covering just mindset issues that all trial attorneys face. That's a drop-in call that they can come or not, that's a bonus of the program. And then they also get a two-day retreat with you in the summer to come out and play with you and your other clients for two days.

Kevin de la Motte:

Yep, it's going to be a lot of fun. All the retreats and the trainings we've been doing out here in person have been so fucking awesome. We've had so much fun.

Sari de la Motte:

If you are listening to this and you are wanting next year, 2026, to be different, you're going to want to get in on this program with Coach K. You can go to sariswears.com/coaching. And there you will find a link where you can get a sample session with Kevin to try out coaching. What is this coaching thing all about? And maybe ask some questions about the program and get yourself signed up. It is not cheap, I will tell you that. It is an investment and it will absolutely utterly and completely change your life. I believe it. I've seen it over and over again. We're going to bring Kevin back for some more episodes as we end out the year because we know you aren't listening and doing things with trial skills so we're going to try to get some mindset shoved in your ear before the next year. Thanks for being here, Coach K.

Kevin de la Motte:

Of course, it's my pleasure.

Sari de la Motte:

And we'll talk to you all next week. Ever wish you had a place to practice your trial skills, and connect with other lawyers who get it, and connect with me? Grab your seat in the H2H playground. It's where you get a real coaching community and strategies to actually grow your practice. Head to sariswears.com/play and get enrolled. Until next time.