Sari Swears Podcast: How Shaun Transformed His Trial Practice

You ever meet someone and think, “Oh, they’re about to break wide open.”

That was PI attorney Shaun Lieser.

When he first joined our H2H world, he was smart (still is), capable (still is), and honestly?

A little stuck.

Then he FLIPPED the switch.

Inside the episode, we talk about:

👉🏽 Why wanting to be liked is killing your presence in court

👉🏽 The moment Shaun realized voir dire isn’t all about being smart — it’s about connection

👉🏽 How the H2H Method™ helped him step FULLY into his voice and style

There’s SO much gold in this one, and Shaun brings the kind of honesty that I know will land deeply with you.

Tune in NOW! 🎧

Love,
Sari 💖

➡️Listen on Spotify

➡️Listen on Apple

➡️Watch on Youtube

➡️FREE FB GROUP FOR PLAINTIFF & CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEYS

“What I appreciated most about the H2H work was the freedom it gave me to fully express myself in court. Before, I was always trying to fit into this ‘trial lawyer’ mold I thought I needed to be in. But when I started working with you, Sari, and the H2H method, I realized—my presence, my instincts, my style… it’s all enough. In fact, it’s more than enough. And that gave me a whole new level of confidence in front of a jury.”
shaun lieser

transcription

Sari de la Motte:

Was there an offer in this case?

Shaun Lieser:

There was. They had offered 100,000.

Sari de la Motte:

And the verdict was?

Shaun Lieser:

800,000.

Sari de la Motte:

Nice. You're listening to Sari Swear on the Sari Swear podcast. Welcome to another episode of Sari Swears. I'm here with guest Shaun Lieser. Did I say that right, Lieser?

Shaun Lieser:

Lieser. Shaun Lieser.

Sari de la Motte:

Lieser. I always want to say leisure, like leisure suit, even though we know each other and have for a while now. And I'm also here with my French Bulldog wearing a French Bulldog sweater. So, those weirdos that watch podcasts, I don't get this watching podcasting, but if you wanted to come see it, you could see the sweater and the dog that inspired the sweater. So, welcome to Shaun. Thank you so much for being here.

Shaun Lieser:

Thank you for having me.

Sari de la Motte:

I'm so excited to chat with you. So, Shaun, tell us where you practice and if you have a specialty or if you do all sorts of things, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Shaun Lieser:

Sure. So, I practice in St. Louis Missouri is our primary office, but we have an office over in southern Illinois, and we've also been trying cases throughout the country, which has been pretty exciting. And in the St. Louis area, I will say being called a Lieser isn't a bad thing because it used to be a mafia family. So, there was a lot of respect that came with that name. So, I'll take it sometimes.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah. I always spell it wrong. And then you have Shaun spelled weirdly too. So, you're like me, I always tell people my first name was weird and then I married a French guy and just screwed everybody up.

Shaun Lieser:

Yeah. I'm always spelling both my names. But back to your original question, I primarily handle personal injury cases and mostly catastrophic automobile and trucking cases.

Sari de la Motte:

Okay. So, when you say we, do you own your own firm and who are you practicing with?

Shaun Lieser:

So, Alex Lamb is an associate here at my firm. He's the only other attorney and then we have two paralegals. So, we're a small but mighty firm as we like to say.

Sari de la Motte:

Love it, love it. Okay. So, before we get into your recent case win, we're really here to talk about the transformation that you've seen since getting into the H2H world. So, let's start by talking about how you come to H2H? How did that journey start for you?

Shaun Lieser:

Well, it started with your book and I don't know if it was a trial guide email that I received where it was highlighting the book, but in any case, I ended up ordering it and I read it in a day or two. And what really drew me to it was the idea that we're trying to be inclusive rather than exclusive, but mostly it was the freedom that I feel like it gave attorneys to be themselves. And that was what drew me to it the most, that trying to emulate other people, really just have to emulate ourselves. And that really the jury is making the decision, we're just being the messenger. And having that freedom made it a lot more fun. It takes the pressure off a little bit and it was just a different way to look at it. And I think that finding out that it's okay to trust the jury is really one of the biggest lessons that I took from it.

Sari de la Motte:

Well, talk to me a little bit about this sense of having to emulate others. I think a lot of trial attorneys struggle with that. Where do you think that comes from?

Shaun Lieser:

I think we live in a world of too much information. It doesn't matter if you're buying a TV or a microphone for a podcast, you're comparing them to 18 different ones because we have so much access to info. There's so many books out there, there's so many, no offense podcasts, but there's so many different people that you feel that, "Okay, I learned it this way from this person, now I can learn a little more that way. I can get better here." And it's really difficult to just be comfortable with yourself because we're always confronted with other ways, other methods or other styles.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah. And I think that's one of the things that when I really start getting known in this world that people were drawn to is I came out of the gate saying, "I'm not going to give you formula. I'm not going to give you the right way to do the trial." Of course, we have the H2H method and I think it works, but the main thing that I think needs to work is " you." And so, often when I'm working with my trial attorneys, I am getting rid of things so that they who they are can come through and shine through versus adding things to them to do.

Of course, there's skills that you guys are learning, but so much of it is really finding out who the real Shaun is or who the real whoever is. So, we had an interesting moment with that because you ended up emailing me, and we decided to coach together. And you came out to do a trial lab and that seemed like it was a really big moment for you because everything's changed after that. So, let's talk a little bit about what happened when you were out here at our trial lab.

Shaun Lieser:

Well, the trial lab was such an intimate workshop. There were only a few of us and we were working directly with you. And I think it gave us the freedom to be ourselves. I noticed with the other participants, the first go-round when we did our first jury selection, we were maybe a little buttoned up because everyone might've been in their heads a little bit. But when you went the second time, you had that total freedom to try new things to be yourself. And I think it really paid off.

But the other aspect of it was starting out with the mindset training and being very open about our individual fears, and I think it's at the beginning of your book, talking about not being good enough. I think it was the first quote right out of the gate. There's always that fear. And I think the permission to be yourself to try new things not only allows you to practice it, but it gives people a lot of confidence when they see how it pays off.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah. And we do start with the mindset right in that morning, and I'm always struck by how vulnerable everyone is to share, but I also am struck that when we are sharing our fears as trial lawyers in this world, that they're almost always the same. "I'm not good enough. Someone else is better. Someone else should do this case instead of me." So on and so forth.

And I also find that when you're out here and we say this to everybody, in fact, we just had our damages seminar last week and on the afternoon of the second day, I gave everybody about 45 minutes to go prepare a mini power of jury speech, like the end of your closing. And before one of the participants came up to do his, he just said, "Fuck you, Sari." Which of course I love.

But then when we were completing, as you know, we do completion in a very specific way, he was like, "This was transformative. It was transformative that you made me do that and I didn't feel 100% prepared. And I did it anyway and I did it well." And I think that was one of the things that happened at the trial lab with you is that, I watched it in real time, you just let go and did your thing in jury selection. And it was, as we said, magic, I said, "You are magic."

What did that feel like to just let go of trying to, I wouldn't say you weren't trying to get something done because you were, you had an idea of what you were trying to get, but there was something that happened for you that was just freedom in the moment when I saw you in front of that second jury.

Shaun Lieser:

Well, I think a lot of it comes down to trust. And you can start out with trusting the jury, but really trusting yourself to get to where you need to go. Not worrying about a script, not worrying about doing it perfectly, but doing it as yourself and that you will get where you need to be. And then really, it's just instead of walking in there with an outline and the pressure to hit all the points, you just walk in there and have a conversation and you're reacting as a person.

And I think you had mentioned before how we talked about our fears. I think one of the cool parts about that program is that a lot of us do have the same or similar fears. So, in that initial exercise when you're talking about it, you're really bonding because you have those things in common, which is a great subtlety to what we're doing in jury selection. When we're talking to the jury, we're trying to find things that they might have in common or really in a way show them things you have in common with them by talking to them like a person and not a lawyer. And when you can relax and be yourself, that really comes out. And it really came out for me on that final day.

Sari de la Motte:

Well, and I think too, we were calling you the trampoline, the human trampoline if I remember correctly, because what happened, and this is such a benefit of when you let go is, and it's not just letting go like, "Okay, I'm going to go up here and do what you're on some case that I don't know anything about." Y'all know your cases so well. This is what I continue to remind you. You know the points that we want to make sure that we get out. And those aren't defense points actually, those are our principles.

And when you let go and you trust that, and so you said trust before, I think it's trusting your knowing about this, what that allows and why it was so magical is that someone would give you something and it was like boing, and you would just go naturally to this other thing and then going over to this other thing. And that's what we were all watching, we were like, "Who is this guy?"

I mean, there's no other word for it. It was magical as we watched it, but I don't think you could have done that if you had not been present, and in the moment, instead of thinking like, "Oh my god, what I do with that answer, is that good? Is that bad?" All the things that we talk about all the time around here. There is this self-trust piece around that. Would you agree?

Shaun Lieser:

Well, yeah, I completely agree. And I think part of it is presence throughout the whole trial. I think it starts in jury selection. And it really became fun. And I think what helps the transformation is instead of hearing that bad answer and thinking in your head, "Okay, how do I get rid of this person?" You start to transform into thinking, "How do I shape this person or keep this person?" And I don't mean shape in a manipulative way.

Sari de la Motte:

Or use this person, right?

Shaun Lieser:

Right. Yeah.

Sari de la Motte:

Because if we get rid of them, we can use their answer to help the group as a whole.

Shaun Lieser:

Yeah. I think instead of fearing a bad answer, you have to come to a point where there are no bad answers.

Sari de la Motte:

That's right.

Shaun Lieser:

It's a learning process. And in our last trial, we had a liability question and one of the jurors seemed like they would be horrible for me with the facts of the crash, but then I had a professional truck driver right behind him, give another opinion and instead of trying to strike the juror in front, I just said, "After hearing that, does that shape or change how you were thinking about this? And if so, can you tell us why?" And he said, "Absolutely." And he told us why. He ended up on our jury and afterwards was one of our biggest fans.

Sari de la Motte:

Oh my gosh, I love that. I love that because you don't have this myopic thought. Like, "Oh, one bad answer. That's it." I can use that, I can see, I can hold that in my mind, see how the rest of it goes. I can ask if they agree, disagree. That's what I think is so great when you are able to release and you trust that you know the case and you trust that there's no such thing as a bad answer. You have all these different things that you can play with and that's what we saw you do in front of the jury.

Let's go back in time before we talk about the actual case, we're going to talk about you having tried a case with the H2H methods before you and I even had a personal connection. You'd bought the book and maybe you were listening to the podcast. Tell us a little bit about that one that brought you closer to reaching out to me and saying, "Hey, I want to work with you one-on-one." Which is what we've been doing.

Shaun Lieser:

Sure. That's right, and it's been great. About a year and a half ago, we had a case involving a needle stick where our client was going to a medical facility to pick up their medical waste and he picked up a box that was unmarked and needles as he held it up, slid through and poked him in the stomach.

Sari de la Motte:

Oh my gosh.

Shaun Lieser:

So, it was a case we took and it was around for a while, but we took it a while ago because the liability was so egregious that we felt like the story had to be told. Luckily for him, he didn't contract anything, but it was a bag full of 50 to 100 needles. We had to go by the photos we had, but it just looked insane. And the thought that went through his mind of what he could have contracted, what he could have had, just to me it was this should never happen. No medical facility should do this. And that was the first trial that I showed up really trying to be inclusive of all the jurors because it really resonated from the standpoint that we are on the side of the right, that nobody could look at the photo we had of the loose needles and think anything other than that was horrific.

Sari de la Motte:

But there's no damages. Why would you take that case to trial?

Shaun Lieser:

Well, that case was all about liability and making things more safe and accountability. I think they offered us three or $4,000, maybe 20,000 at one point, I don't even remember. But the jury ended up awarding 65,000 for the no damages case, but then a million dollars in punitive damages. And it was a great feeling and everyone was on our side instead. I also think when you're trying to get rid of jurors out of the gate, you're looking like you have something to hide or that you're trying to protect something.

Sari de la Motte:

That is such a great point.

Shaun Lieser:

It looks too defensive.

Sari de la Motte:

I just want to pause on that for a minute. I've been singing that tune forever about jurors are not your enemy, but I've never had somebody put that in that way. That makes so much sense. Say more about that.

Shaun Lieser:

Well, it just feels like you're running from something. You automatically, you're not with me, so I have to get rid of you folks and let me show you all why I'm going to get rid of the ones because I'm afraid that they're not going to agree with us. Whereas the other way, you had shown and taught us in the trial lab how to confront some things head on, because I think we've all been there where you have the juror that takes you down a rabbit hole that it's a negative aspect of your case, that has nothing to do with it. And out of respect for them, we used to let them go on and talk, but now it's, "Hold on, wait a second. I can tell you right now that's not going to be an issue here."

So, you're starting to shape them down, showing them what is relevant, what they're going to have to really consider. And even if it's a negative opinion, then you just go ask somebody else and get them to talk about, "Well, what do you think about that?" And then just counter it. And you're just showing them what they agree and disagree with, but you're not telling them.

Sari de la Motte:

That's right. And it's very different from what I think. I keep saying how most of you have been trained, but when I talk to most of you, you're like, "We have never been trained. We just watch other people and read books and we do our best." But the prevailing thing out there is, okay, hear this negative answer from this one juror. So, then I'm going to let them talk because of course I want to hear more so I can get my cause challenged. And not only that, then I'm going to be like, "Who agrees with this juror?" And then I'm going to have seven other people who agree and then I get all those people off for cause. And so, isn't that a good thing, Shaun? Why wouldn't we want to do that?

Shaun Lieser:

No, because it has nothing to do with your case. And you may be getting rid of people that completely agree with you, but they are taking down this rabbit hole that has nothing to do with what they're going to learn about as the trial goes on. And I think who else agrees with that? So, they all know you're getting rid of them. And again, it really becomes like you have something to hide.

Sari de la Motte:

I love that, I love that. I've never really thought about it in that way, but it's so, so true. I think it changes everything. I've had Michael Cowen on the podcast, of course he was one of my first masterminds. And I hear the same things from those of you who've had, I should start calling it the transformation. It's like this moment when the switch flips and it's two things is I'm not as afraid of the jury anymore. I know that most of them want to do the right thing and they just need to know more about the case. And trials are fun. Again, those are the two big things that seem to go hand in hand. But this was a fluke, this case of yours. You didn't have any other good results. So, let's talk about this case that was after we've been coaching for a while after the trial lab, you went and tried this case. Tell us a little bit about it and your process with all of it.

Shaun Lieser:

Sure. So, we had another one in between that we got another seven-figure verdict and it felt really natural and really comfortable. But this last one we had about a month ago really opened it all up for me and I trust for me it is a big one. And I keep saying that, but it's mostly trusting myself. And I had been on a trip right before this trial and I came back and had about three days, and of course I knew about the case, but I came back and I trusted myself to be ready for it. And I can say this, and I don't know if this is good or bad, but it was the least that I prepared, but the most comfortable I've ever felt. And it was because I-

Sari de la Motte:

Was going to say, do you think those things are correlated?

Shaun Lieser:

I think so, because I think when we think that we need to prepare, prepare, prepare, and over prepare, I think that that's because we're nervous about something else or there's some underlying fear, 95% or more of the time we know everything about our case. We're ready for the trial, we just think that you have to always be doing more and more and more rather than stepping back and just trusting yourself that you're going to handle it when you walk in. Go ahead. Sorry.

Sari de la Motte:

No, go ahead. It's a lot of what?

Shaun Lieser:

I was just going to say, it's similar to when the juror gives you a bad answer. You trust yourself that you're going to trampoline it or ping pong it back where it's just really a lot of the trial you can't really have a script because as the trial goes, it writes itself whether you're getting answers in jury selection that you give back in opening or whether you are just learning some of the defense arguments in their opening that you're going to confront with your witnesses. It really is an evolving process.

Sari de la Motte:

And I think the one thing that you can walk in with without having to over prepare are the principles, the themes, the things that really truly matter. I think what happens when we over prepare is we are chasing every rabbit down the rabbit hole of defense points. They keep throwing these things up. We're like, "Oh my god, that's another thing I need to prepare for. Oh my god, that's another thing I need to prepare for." Instead of saying, "No, no, no, this is what my case is about. This is I stand on these principles and yes, here's how I will deal with those various arguments."

But a lot of the time we walk in with 67 of their defenses and we have no unifying factor of why we are there, what this case is really about. Because as you've said, we stand on the side of the right and we forget that. It's like we go in there and our job is to defend the defenses and that's not what our job is. So, can you tell us a little bit about this case?

Shaun Lieser:

Yeah. So, this involved a company that had a driver that was relatively new. He had been there for about 30 days and his trainer or supervisor was in the car and the box truck with him, and he was pulling out to make a left turn and couldn't see oncoming traffic. In other words, I couldn't see my client because there was a big truck there getting ready to turn and make a right turn into his parking lot. So, the truck driver just waved him on out and he accepted that as safe and took off and my client T-boned into his truck and ended up with a severely fractured ankle that required surgery to repair.

But to the point about all the defenses, I mean their whole argument was that, "Well, sure you can rely. They waved them out. This is an accident. They happen." Part of the trust issue with the jury is that we just have to trust the jury to get it sometimes that it's not okay to just pull out blindly. And obviously you make a few points, but the more that we buy into a thousand defenses or whatever they throw at the wall, it's distracting. It's distracting from what your client went through, it's distracting from what was actually done. And it's like I said earlier, in the world of so many choices, the TV is like when you start looking at 80 of them, you don't know which one you want. So, we really have to focus and hone in. And by the time you get to closing, just trust that they get it, that they understand this.

Sari de la Motte:

That's right. And that's what I said about persuasion, what you said about exclusionary voir dires looking like you have something to hide. Persuasion in my view is looking like something, really, I need to really persuade you that it's not okay to just turn left. No, I don't. That's just fucking common sense. You don't do that. And when you do that and you cause harm, you have to take responsibility for that harm.

And I think there is something there, oftentimes, if not all the time, the biggest part of my job as a consultant is to help people simplify. It's so complicated oftentimes when people come into my office to work on a case, because they're coming in with all of the what ifs. What if the defense says this? What if the defense says that? How do we round this? And I'm always trying to simplify that.

Or when we're working on, for example, the teaching section in the presentation skills class or one of the things we do here in the crew and we're going through what they should be teaching on, y'all are complicating that and you're making these really complicated. And I'm like, "Isn't it just this?" They should have monitored and stopped or whatever, really simple things. And they're like, "But isn't that too simple?" And I always say, "No, it should feel like a duh to the jury." When you're teaching about how you avoid this thing, the jury should be like, "Well, yeah, duh." It should be that simple. Because then it makes it simple for them to go, "Well, why wouldn't they do that?" And most of the time it's money. Well, because it's cheaper than the other thing or because there's a money piece involved here.

So, simply it is good that we allow the defense, which is their job. Totally. If you're a good defense attorney, your whole job is to distract, to throw stuff at the wall, to throw the balls and hope that we chase them down the rabbit holes and to get us off our game. And my whole thing is what's our case about? What can we stand for?

Shaun Lieser:

Right. And going in there with that plan to just focus on your side of the case. And I also think the jurors, I mean they appreciate simplicity because they don't want their time to be wasted either. And if you have a rogue juror that talks about an issue that isn't going to be in the case, it's okay to cut them off and say, "That's all right." Because everyone will appreciate that you're respecting their time.

Sari de la Motte:

Isn't that hard though, for y'all? I mean, just speaking to that one piece, we do teach you how to manage the jury. We teach you how to form the group first of all. I have so many TLC-ers in my group and they love trial lawyers college and nothing against trial lawyers college, but one of them consistently says, "I am constantly being told I need to form the group, but I had no idea how to do that until I got to you. You actually show us how to form the group and how to know that they're formed."

But what a lot of people don't understand is once a group is formed, you need to manage them and you have permission to manage them. And so, if you have that one talkative juror, the juror that's going down the road, that has nothing to do with your case, that not only do you have permission to stop them, but you should stop them. What do you think is the fear of nearly every attorney I've ever worked with to do that? You guys feel like you can't do that.

Shaun Lieser:

Yeah. Because we're afraid we're going to offend them, that we're going to cut them off and we're going to make them look stupid. But really you are protecting them because if you let someone go on and on and on about something that everyone learns either had nothing to do with it or right after that you say, "Well, it has nothing to do with it." And when I've cut people off, I actually find that they appreciate it. And they'll say, "Oh, oh, okay. Well that was something that came to mind." And I'll say, "Well, of course, and that's a great point. It's just not one that you're going to see this week. So, let's talk about this." And then you shift it. And I feel like they respond really well because you're not letting them drone on about something that is irrelevant and then they're back on the same page and it's really more a benefit.

Sari de la Motte:

And if it's an offensive juror, that one that is really, really bad for your case, why the fuck do you guys care if that person is feeling hurt? I think what you worry about is if the other jurors think that you are being unfair to that juror. But that again, comes back to group dynamics. When the group is formed, they will tell you that they're annoyed with that person and they will give you permission to shut that person down. So, there's a lot of those things that we can play with. So, you were just coming back from Europe. You had three days to put your voir dire together. And what was it like actually doing the voir dire with these jurors?

Shaun Lieser:

Well, it was, like I said, very freeing for me to walk in. And the mindset piece is huge. I mean, I remember when we were at the trial lab and right before I walked out for the final one, Kevin came up and asked me, "Who's your favorite comedian? Bring him up to mind. And when you see them walk out on the stage, do they own it, or do they just walk out there?" And he said, "Own it like they own it."

And I remember going out there with a ton of energy and thinking I'm just going to talk. But when I went into this trial, I thought the jury loved me. I have conversations with them all the time. I have conversations with people all the time, and it goes really well. Why would this be any different? And going out there with that mindset and having a plan and a principle-oriented jury selection, I find that they're shorter. They're more to the point, and it's making everyone feel like they want to be a part of it.

I mean, the jurors that we had on this jury were so excited to partake in it. I'm not going to say all of them, but several of them that talked to us after were really excited. And the best compliment I think that they gave was that they felt like I spoke with them, not at them, and that we were on the same team.

Sari de la Motte:

Did you use any cause challenges or peremptories?

Shaun Lieser:

We had a couple of challenges, not too many. I think there were maybe four or five. And the first time we tried this inclusive jury selection, I remember when I only had I think two cause strikes, I thought, "What are my friends going to think of me? That is not enough. I didn't get enough. This wasn't a great job."

Sari de la Motte:

I know. It's like the notches in your belt. You have to have all those challenges. And so, first of all, how long did it take to try the case?

Shaun Lieser:

It was a day and a half.

Sari de la Motte:

I love that. That's amazing.

Shaun Lieser:

Yeah. It was very, very to the point, which I think was great. The judge kept things moving and things were on time, which is very helpful. So, we added it to the jury, I think around 2:00.

Sari de la Motte:

You added it for 2:00 on day one or day two?

Shaun Lieser:

We started at 9:00 AM on Monday. Day two, I think we had it to the jury at 2:00 and we had a verdict in about an hour and 10 minutes or so.

Sari de la Motte:

Well, like I say, long openings tend to send the message that this is really complex and confusing. Same with long trials, if we're spending days and days on something, it says, "Wow, there's really a lot here to come through." Versus this is common sense people. Was there an offer in this case?

Shaun Lieser:

There was. They had offered 100,000.

Sari de la Motte:

And the verdict was?

Shaun Lieser:

Right 100,000.

Sari de la Motte:

Nice.

Shaun Lieser:

So, it felt really good. And the other thing that I like about it is about 45 days before the trial, we offered to resolve it for 650. And we said, that's it. Pay that or we'll try the case. And they chose to try it and we got higher than that, which felt really good as well. And I think that it helps a lot too, drawing that line in the sand sometimes so that you can just focus on the trial and you know what your goal is and you know what you're there to do.

Sari de la Motte:

So, for our listeners, you've had the transformation, I'll start calling it this flip switch. What would be your number one advice to a trial lawyer, whether they're just starting out or they've been practicing for 30 years?

Shaun Lieser:

Number one piece of advice, I think, is to trust yourself and to be yourself. I mean, nobody is better than you at being you. And we coach our clients all the time when it's time for their deposition or to be at trial to be themselves because people can spot it when you're trying to emulate or be somebody else. And when people try to do that, it comes off as phony and you don't trust them. I mean, there are a lot of great lawyers, there are a lot of great witnesses, a lot of great people. But I think what makes people great is when they are themselves. And I think if we can do that and feel that comfort, it comes across and it's 10 times more trustworthy.

Sari de la Motte:

Well, and I think too that it's difficult to do that. People are like, "What does that even mean?" And I think that's where mindset coaching comes in, which you've been doing for a couple years now. And that I think allows you to get to the place where it feels safe enough to be yourself and trust that yourself is enough. And that's why I love mindset coaching because it's all about getting to who you really are and what you really want in your life.

And I don't know that you and I have hardly ever talked about trial stuff in our sessions. I mean, maybe we've debriefed here and there, but just doing the mindset training alone on even personal stuff we see translates into the trial because I will often notice that trial lawyers have their, like, this is Shaun in my personal life, and there's Shaun in trial. They're two different people. And I think one thing that happens in mindset coaching is realizing that you can integrate those and you can be you everywhere. You don't have to be this mask or this person of what it means to be a trial lawyer in court.

Shaun Lieser:

Yeah. And I think that's one of the best features of it because when you have a juror tell you that they felt like we were all on the same team or that you were just one of us, I mean, there's really nothing special about being a lawyer, but there are things that make you special about who you are as an individual. And when that comes across and you're just there as another member of the community, again, being a messenger, not trying to hit somebody over the head and tell them what they should feel or what they should think, that's another aspect that takes a lot of pressure off.

We can't convince or we can't change their beliefs or tell them how to feel. But what we can do is show them what happened. And with a good case, we are on the side of the right. And if you end up with a verdict that goes against you, sometimes you just can't help it. But it's our job to convey it, not say it per se, not tell them what it is. And I think that's also incredibly freeing.

Sari de la Motte:

For sure. Your life, as you've told me, has changed so much in the space of a year. What would you say has been the biggest change for you?

Shaun Lieser:

I think it's the freedom and having fun with it, to not be so obsessed with being perfect that knowing that nothing or nobody is perfect and it's not going to be perfect, but really that's what makes it fun. When people would ask me why I went to law school or why I became a lawyer, the real answer was because my dad was in the union and represented a lot of people that needed it and were fighting for their employment. So, I saw that. But the other reason was I watched A Few Good Men and I loved that movie, but my joke would always be, it's nothing like that in the courtroom. I thought it was like that, but that's TV. But in the last couple years since it's become fun again, there are several moments that are like that.

Sari de la Motte:

Yes.

Shaun Lieser:

Because things don't go perfectly or they're not rehearsed and you have to improvise or be you on the spot. And there are some TV moments. And I think that's because when I watched that movie, it looked fun. Now it has become fun again, and I'm really loving it.

Sari de la Motte:

I love that. Well, before we sign off, I know that, and I should have kept that in mind that your kids will be listening to this, so I did swear, but I know that they already know that I swear. So, is there anything you want to say to your kids or your beloved, because I know that they're so much a big part of your life?

Shaun Lieser:

Really put me on the spot. Well, I can say just to make you feel better kids and Alicia, I fucking love you and you all are the best. And I'll tell you some of the best advice I get is from Alicia and my kids. I mean, I love running a fact pattern by Rylan and River's a little young, but sometimes her too, because the kids see it in the most simple ways and they give it to you straight. And that's actually been a lot of fun for us to work together. And Rylan told me that when he grows up, he wants to be a professional soccer player and a worker. And I said, "What's a worker?" And he said, "Someone at your office." And I thought, "Well, that sounds great."

Sari de la Motte:

Oh my gosh, I love that.

Shaun Lieser:

Yeah. They're a big, big part of my success.

Sari de la Motte:

I want my kids to take over for me when I retire, but they're too busy becoming the next Billie Eilish or whatnot. So, River and Rylan and Alicia, this man loves you, I can tell you that as his coach, and I know that it's going to be fun to hear that little shout out here on the podcast. Well, Shaun, thank you for being you. First of all, you are a delight. You are just so much fun to coach and to work with. But also thank you for being on the podcast. And everybody, we will talk to you next week. Thanks so much.

If you haven't already seen our freebie 8 Strategies for 8 Figures, you can go to sariswears.com/8strategies. The number eight strategies. You get the first three for free. You got to pay, but not very much for the whole thing. But go get the first three and see if you like it ever.

Ever wish you had a place to practice your trial skills and connect with other lawyers who get it and connect with me, grab your seat in the H2H Playground. It's where you get a real coaching community and strategies to actually grow your practice. Head to sariswears.com/play and get enrolled. Until next time.