Ep. 260 – Short Not Shallow: Secrets to Shorter, Yet Impactful Trials – Part 1

WANNA KNOW HOW TO CUT YOUR TRIAL TIME WITHOUT SACRIFICING IMPACT? ⏳

In Part 1 of this series, Jody and I are breaking down the ONE thing you need to zero in on to cut your trial time without cutting corners.

YES — JODY IS BACK! 🤩

(For those of you who don’t know — she’s my sidekick, my ride-or-die, and QUITE POSSIBLY THE BEST FUCKING PERSON on the planet, with 20+ years as a trial attorney and 4 years as a mindset coach.) 

We’ll break down HOW loving your clients, your mission, and ditching the fear-driven chaos is the secret to keeping your trial crystal clear for the jury.

We’ll introduce you to the XY Filter, a strategy designed to help you focus on the one thing that wins your case and drop everything else you waste time on that DOESN'T. FUCKING. MATTER.

Tune in, sharpen your strategy, and let the wins roll in.

Xo,
Sari

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"If we don’t tell the jury what’s important, they’ll rank and file information according to their own experiences. I want to direct that. I’m the director of the trial.

I’ll tell them, 'These are the three points that matter,' and I’m going to trust that those three points will resonate because I’m the lawyer, I’m the strategist, and I know what needs to be proven."

jody moore

EPISODE 260 TRANSCRIPTION

Sari de la Motte:

My oh my! We've got some can't miss events lined up, and our first on the docket is a panel with some of our crew members on September 17th at 9:30 AM Pacific, 12:30 PM Eastern. You'll get to hear firsthand the game-changing strategies they've used to skyrocket their careers. The best part? It's absolutely FREE. This is your golden ticket to hear directly from your peers.

Well, welcome everyone back to a brand new season of From Hostage to Hero. And I know I said that I would be back in August with new episodes, but what we've decided is our season now runs from September through June. So welcome back and welcome back to me because I was in Finland and then doing all the things in August, and here we are again. So I have some exciting announcements for you about the podcast particularly. One is that I'm very excited for your review.

That hasn't happened yet, so you need to do that. So that will be something that is on your to-do list. But I'm really excited because we're going to have a little bit of a different format this year in that I'm going to try, I'm going to attempt to read one book a month in whole. I read all the time, but it's like here and there and here and there. And I'm going to bring that to you and tell you whether I like it and how you can use it as a trial lawyer.

I'm going to try to do that once a month. We're going to have some trial debriefs once a month, if possible, from people who are winning and/or losing out there and give us their take on that. I'll also be doing what I normally do, which is yelling at y'all about how you need to do things differently and recognize how great you are.

But the most exciting thing that is going to be happening is once a month we are going to have lead consultant on the H2H faculty Jody Fucking Moore join me as my sidekick and we're going to talk all things trial. And so your middle name is Fucking, yes?

Jody Moore:
Sure. I'll legally change it for you, Sari.

Sari de la Motte:
What is it actually?

Jody Moore:
Cheryl.

Sari de la Motte:
Cheryl, okay.

Jody Moore:
Jody Cheryl Moore.

Sari de la Motte:
Many of you probably know Jody from the podcast—she's been on a couple of times—but we do have a bunch of new listeners. In fact, I think we're up to half a million downloads now of the podcast.

Jody Moore:
That's crazy.

Sari de la Motte:
Isn't that crazy? If you don’t know who Jody is, Jody is a kick-ass lawyer. She owns her own law firm in Thousand Oaks, right? Thousand Oaks.

Jody Moore:
Thousand Oaks, California.

Sari de la Motte:
And you are a nursing home elder abuse expert.

Jody Moore:
Thank you.

Sari de la Motte:
And all of that is really nice, but what we really want to know is why are you here at H2H? What made you come to H2H, and why should these people listen to you as my sidekick?

Jody Moore:
Yeah, so I've been working with you since the beginning of the pandemic, although we met a bajillion years ago at a "Take Back the Courtroom" event.

Sari de la Motte:
And then you ghosted me.

Jody Moore:
Yes. Yeah, we had a really lovely meal, and then I never called you again. We reconnected during the pandemic.

Like a lot of people, I was experiencing burnout and wasn’t quite sure what was next for me. We did some mindset coaching together. We did Path to Mastery.

My famous line is, I came for the trial skills and stayed for the community. And we’ve really built an amazing community here at H2H where everyone is supporting and uplifting each other, becoming better lawyers, and, more importantly, living better lives. That's the point.

Sari de la Motte:
Absolutely, absolutely. Which happened to you as well, if I may share that, right?

Jody Moore:
Yeah, no, I think it did.

I mean, I was on the hamster wheel, like I said. And on paper, my life looked great—and my life is great, don’t get me wrong. Happily married, healthy kids, my name's on the door at my law firm, and I had a lot of autonomy. But I was running myself pretty ragged, and my saboteur was very active.

So I had a lot of anxiety around how I was showing up, both at work and at home. Balancing being a firm owner, a trial attorney, a spouse, and a mom is no joke. It’s not for the faint of heart. And figuring out how to get those priorities straight and thrive in each of those arenas? I hadn’t learned that yet—until probably the last four years.

Sari de la Motte:
Yeah, and it's been so fun to work with you, to keep pulling you away and saying, "Jody, do more with H2H." And here you are, now on the podcast. I’m so excited to start this new series with you once a month. We’ve talked a lot about this, and you’re the one that coined this phrase, so before we dive into what we’re actually talking about today: we are creating a love revolution.

And I know those of you who’ve been here for Trial Labs know we call it the love bubble when you’re here. Talk a little bit about this love revolution that we’re trying to create—and actually are creating.

Jody Moore:
The origin of the love revolution is really about taking a closer look, or maybe zooming out is a better phrase, on why we do what we do and what fuels us.

I think a lot of attorneys are fueled by fear—fear of failure, fear of looking bad, fear of feeling ashamed or embarrassed, certainly fear of losing a case. And we think that fear is motivating us, but it’s terrible fuel. It feels awful.

Sari de la Motte:
It's depleting.

Jody Moore:
The love revolution is about how we come to our practices and our lives with love as the fuel.

I have a lot of love for my clients. I have love for the justice system. I’m a true advocate for our civil justice system. I also have love for the people who work in my law firm.

I want the experience for people who work for me to be good, so they’re not facing overwhelm and burnout. I don’t always succeed—if anyone's listening—but we’re working on it, like creating that culture.

Sari de la Motte:
Only half a million people are listening. No big deal.

Jody Moore:
We’re working on that culture of being warm-hearted and open-hearted about the work we’re doing. And that changed my attitude toward what it might look like if my case isn’t as successful as I think it should have been—or if a judge is yelling at me, or if opposing counsel’s being a jerk. I come back to what grounds me in the practice of law, and that’s my love for it.

Sari de la Motte:
And love is one of our values here at H2H. We tell our clients we love them, we tell each other we love each other. We’re definitely here for the love revolution.

Sari de la Motte:
Now, if you're in the crew—and I’m talking about the H2H Playground, by the way—we’re opening on September 17th, which is in just a few weeks. Not next week—I don’t have a calendar in my brain right now—but you need to get in, my people.
It’s one thing if you have the fundamentals course, or if you listen to the podcast to learn the content, or even hear me talk about mindset. But in the crew, in the Playground, we call them the crew—the people who are in it—the Playground is where we play. That’s where the rubber meets the road. That’s where we’re putting things into action. You have access to all my coaches, you have access to me. You’re learning, you’re practicing, you’re collaborating.

In fact, Jody and I, next month, are going to be talking about why collaboration is so important. But that is the place you want to be. So go to sariswears.com/play and get on the waitlist.

But if you’re already in there, you know that one of our new offerings this year is called “Expanding the Method.” Jody and I are working with our legacy members—people who’ve been in the crew for one year or more—and we’re talking about how to apply H2H to other parts of trial.

Because, if you’re a die-hard fan, you know we focus a lot on voir dire, opening, and closing arguments. That’s where we play, because that’s where you’re directly engaging with the jurors. But now that H2H has taken off, everyone’s asking, “What about cross-exam? What about direct? What about depositions?” So we have this great call where we’re playing with that.

Out of that has come something really central, something that's going to be the underpinning of everything we design from this point forward—and Jody and I are designing this right now—and that’s this idea of clarity. That’s what we want to talk about today.

Why this has come up is because we love Joe Fried. We’re both huge fans—Joe, if you're listening, first of all, honored, because wow, that's cool that you're listening to my podcast. But also, we love Joe, and he’s taken this idea of “speed trial,” which is that trials do not have to be as long as we make them.

When you have a long trial, it’s exhausting for you, it’s exhausting for the jurors. And his whole thing is, it doesn’t have to be that way. And Jody took that idea and was like, “I’m not so sure it’s about speed necessarily—and I don’t think Joe thinks it’s about that either—it’s really about clarity.”

When we get clarity in our cases, the byproduct is that they become shorter.

And that’s what we want to talk about today. Jody’s going to give us four reasons why she thinks our cases are taking too long and some ways to avoid that. But before we even get into those steps, Jody, talk to me about how this idea hit you and where it all started.

Jody Moore:
Yeah, well, you touched upon it. We all know that complexity and confusion are tools of the defense. And you've been preaching that for a long time—and that's been true my whole career. A confused jury is not going to be a plaintiff’s jury. So, we have to figure out how to simplify our message. And I think everybody knows that, but they don’t always know how to do it.

I met Joe Fried not that long ago, and I was picking his brain about speed trial. I’ve heard several people who’ve taken those ideas and talked about it. And to be candid, I do nursing home cases, and they can be very complex. And part of me thought, “Well, that’s fine for other types of cases, but how could I possibly do that in a nursing home case?”

Then I listened to folks who did it in nursing home cases—or I thought, “I want punitive damages, and you can’t get punitive damages in a three-day trial.” And then I heard about people who got eight-figure punitive damages in a three-day trial. And I thought, “Okay, there’s something here, and I need to explore it more.”

Sari de la Motte:
We can’t ever do anything until it’s been done, right? That’s just how it works in the legal field. I’ll hear from attorneys in North Carolina—whom I love, you know who you are—and they’re like, “Well, we’ve never had an eight-figure wrongful death case.” And I’m like, yeah, because no one’s ever asked for eight figures. I mean, they may have, but it’s this mindset issue. We can’t do it until someone does it, and then we’re like, “Oh wait, we can do that.”

Jody Moore:
Exactly. And the other thing is, in 2021, I tried a case over Zoom, which was super fun—100% over Zoom—and it went on for four months. Now granted, we were only in trial from 9:00 to 1:30, four days a week, but still, four months. And I started thinking, how many people can pause their practice or their life for four months? It's a huge ask.

So it got me thinking, people are going to be way more likely to take their cases to trial if we can shorten them and get directly to the point. I think that particularly impacts women, which is something I’m passionate about—ensuring that women are thriving in the practice of law.

Trying to figure out how to balance being gone for that long with my responsibilities at home lit a fire under me. I realized, okay, we better figure this out so it’s feasible to go to trial, have a good time, and be successful. So, that’s the idea: simplify for success. That’s the pathway to trying more cases and getting good outcomes.

You always say, “Well, I have research to back this up.” The research supports that people are overloaded with information right now. As trial attorneys, we need to learn how to package our information in a way that keeps the jurors' attention. The old way—standing up, talking, and plodding through the evidence, calling 16 witnesses—is not as effective as cutting to the chase and giving them just the information they need. So, that's the clarity piece. And the byproduct is shorter trials.

Sari de la Motte:
That’s such a good point—that this will hopefully help more people go to trial, because trial is such a freaking slog. And I’m going to do a whole podcast on the book Fair Play—that’s my first book topic—which talks about this, the whole mental and emotional load. Especially for women, leaving for trial is harder. It also ties back to the love revolution.

We’re not just saying, “We’re here to make you love trials again, love the jurors, love your clients.”

We want you to love this job again.

And I think a lot of people are like, “I love my clients, I love fighting for justice, but this is so hard.” And one of the reasons it’s so hard is these long trials.

Jody Moore:
Right, right. If we can shorten them, and collaborate with people we enjoy working with—people who support us and the mission—I think we’ll be going to trial more often and having more successful outcomes.

Sari de la Motte:
So, let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about the reasons why attorneys have long trials or feel like they need long trials, and then we’ll go into how we can stop doing that.

Jody Moore:
So, you alluded to this, right? I think there are four main reasons why trials are long and complicated. One is that, as lawyers, many of us still have fuzzy thinking. Our thinking around our trials or case workup isn’t focused. We think, "I need to take these 10 depos, I have these 200 documents, it all feels important," so we just throw everything into the pot and hope for the best.

If we don’t have really clear thinking about what witness or what evidence we need to meet which elements of the case, then what comes out of our mouths in opening statements, voir dire, and witness examinations won’t be crisp and clear. That’s number one.

Number two, I think there’s a mindset issue around it. Here in H2H, we talk a lot about mindset, and I think there's a trust issue. I’ve heard and even said myself many times in my career, "I just don’t know which fact the jury is going to find persuasive. They might go one way, or they might think a completely different piece of information is key." So, we dump everything on them and hope for the best. We’re afraid of being criticized after the fact—like if we lose, someone might say, “Well, if you’d made a different strategic choice, maybe the jury would have ruled differently.” So, we overdo it. And that’s a problem.

Sari de la Motte:
That reminds me of the advice in my book, where I said, "I don’t care what method you use, just commit to one." When you go in all mishmashy, it’s like Cheesecake Factory—sorry, Cheesecake Factory—but they give you a book of choices, and whether you want Asian, Italian, whatever, it gets confusing.

You’re like, "I don’t know what I want," and that seems to be their philosophy. But to me, it's like dumping lasagna, Mongolian beef, and tamales all on someone’s plate and expecting them to enjoy it. It’s a terrible analogy, but we’re doing what the defense is doing—throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks. And it’s just too confusing.

Jody Moore:
Right, right. I want what’s important to the jury to be what I tell them is important.

Sari de la Motte:
That’s exactly it.

Jody Moore:
If I don’t tell them, "These three points are the most important in this case," or maybe even the only points, they’re going to rank and file that information according to their own experiences. I want to direct that. I’m the director of the trial. I’ll tell them, "These are the three points that matter," and I’m going to trust that those three points will resonate because I’m the lawyer, I’m the strategist, and I know what needs to be proven.

It’s like you always say, “Don’t make the jury do your job for you.” If I give them 10 reasons why I could win, I’m actually making them do my job for me.

Sari de la Motte:
That’s right. Amen.

Jody Moore:
So that’s number two. Number three is time management, which we’re all terrible at. We’re all trying to do 100 hours of work in 30 hours, or less, because we’re balancing so many different things. It’s impossible. It takes a lot of time to distill, crystallize, and simplify your case, and that’s the time I often see isn’t being put in.
And I’m guilty of it myself—I’ve done it. I have lots of cases, and they’re all vying for my attention. But I see it when I’m consulting too. Attorneys will come in with their cases, and it’s information overload. The work to distill the case down to its core hasn't been done yet.

Sari de la Motte:
You’re being much nicer than I would be. Put the damn time in. We were just working on a $200 million case, and I’m like, “You need to clear your schedule and focus solely on this until trial,” which was in three weeks. That’s the thing—attorneys are working hard, but not always on the right things.

I’m not saying attorneys are lazy—far from it. You all work harder than any other profession I’ve seen. But you’re not focusing where you need to. What I’ve seen with my eight-figure clients, my mastermind clients, is they’ve now whittled down to 8 to 12 cases. They have others in their firm handling settlements to cover expenses, and that’s where they play. And guess what? They’re getting results.

Jody Moore:
It takes a lot of time. If you’re working a caseload of 60 cases, you just can’t do the deep dive necessary to get that degree of clarity. And the last reason I haven’t quite found a label for yet—maybe ego or self-importance. I don’t mean arrogance, but just that feeling of, "I’ve worked so hard on this case. I crafted the discovery plan, took the depositions, I know the records inside and out, and it all feels important."
When I present to a jury, I feel like showing them how much I know boosts my credibility—and it does. But there’s a tipping point where it becomes more about me showing off my skills than about proving what I need to win. And that can get in the way of the message.

Sari de la Motte:
Totally. You’ve talked before about how someone will spend a ton of money on a beautiful exhibit or PowerPoint, and then it doesn’t even work for the case—but they’re committed to it because they spent all that money on it.

Jody Moore:
Or time! Time is just as valuable. If I spend a ton of time developing a beautiful exhibit or take an exceptional deposition where I make 10 brilliant points—of course I think they’re brilliant—and I’m going through the process of really getting clear on my case, I might realize I only need two points to win. There’s a letting go that has to happen there. It’s hard to let go of the ego sometimes.

Sari de la Motte:
And there’s this fear that creeps in, like, "But isn’t it all of these things?" That’s what you and I are good at when people come in for consultations. They throw everything at us, and we sort through it and say, “Isn’t it just this?” And they go, “Yeah, but…” That’s the saboteur saying, “It can’t be that simple.”

That’s where you have to trust. It can be that simple. And when you get there, that’s when things get good.

Jody Moore:
Yes. Yes. And I think to get to that point, you do have to do all the things.

Sari de la Motte:
There are no shortcuts.

Jody Moore:
Right. You can’t skip the work of taking those 10 depositions or digging through all the evidence. You need to understand everything to really distill it down to what matters most. But once you do that work, that’s when the clarity comes.

Sari de la Motte:
But I also think that people in H2H, once they’ve been here a while, start realizing they should have started the process earlier. They say, "I would’ve asked this in a deposition, or I would’ve looked for this piece of evidence."

If they spent more time upfront developing a story—or even several stories—and went in knowing what they’re looking for, they’d be more efficient.

Jody Moore:
I’ve experienced that in my own firm. It’s funny because sometimes we’re so busy, we don’t spend enough time collaborating. But I had a case in-house where we spent half a day digging into it, and we did the fears list and mined for principles as we prepared for voir dire.

The attorney who had been primarily responsible for the case said, “I’ve been losing sleep over this potential defense for a year, and in the last hour, we figured out the answer.”

It was a weight off her shoulders. And of course, she said, “Why didn’t we do this sooner?” There’s a lot of truth to that.

The sooner you get those epiphanies—how am I winning this case? How am I losing this case?—the better. What evidence supports the win, and what evidence do I need to undermine the defense? The earlier you do that, the better, obviously.

Sari de la Motte:
I already know we’re going to have to break this podcast into several parts because there’s just so much we’re talking about here. Another bad analogy, but it’s almost like we’re looking for a diamond. And as we’re sorting through everything, we’re like, “Well, here’s an emerald, and here’s a sapphire, and here’s a ruby, and those are valuable, too.”

So, what would you say to the argument of, “I get what you’re saying—that we need to focus on one story—but shouldn’t we have a backup story in case the jury doesn’t buy the first one?” I think that’s why attorneys are putting all the things in. What do you think?

Jody Moore:
I think what we’re figuring out during the consultation is that it’s not necessarily about having a backup story. Those other pieces—the emeralds, sapphires, rubies—aren’t useless; they just fit somewhere else. They’re supporting players, not the leading story.

So, for example, maybe they support a motive or explain why we’re even in the courtroom. Maybe they help establish the mechanism of injury or counter the defense on causation. There’s still a place for those issues, but they aren’t the main event. And one of the things I’m really pushing for is asking ourselves more frequently, “Why does this piece of evidence matter? What role does it play in the case?”

Once we understand why something matters, we can figure out where it fits into the structure of the case—or whether it even fits at all. I don’t think we’re asking that question as much as we should before packaging the case for trial.

Sari de la Motte:
That reminds me of when we were just consulting, and it was like, “Where are we going to put this video?” We could talk all day long about where it might go, but the real question is, “What’s the video trying to do?” What’s it accomplishing? It’s the same as when people ask me, “What should I ask in voir dire?” I’m like, “What do you want to know?”

It’s nebulous when you just ask, “What should I do?” without having a clear goal. The real question is, what’s the video doing? Does it tell the story? Does it undermine a point? Does it underpin the money argument? Once you know what you’re trying to achieve, that’s when clarity comes.

Jody Moore:
Exactly. And it’s the same with voir dire. If I’m asking, “What should I ask?” the better question is, “What do I need to know about these jurors?” Everything has to have a purpose, and we have to get clear on what we’re trying to accomplish before we make decisions about how to use it.

Sari de la Motte:
We’re not going to get into the four points on how to avoid long trials today, but we’ll dive into that in the next podcast. For now, let’s leave listeners with one actionable thing they can do: the XY filter. Let’s talk about that before we wrap up.

Jody Moore:
Sure. The XY filter is something we’ve been talking about a lot. As you work through a case, you start getting clearer on what you need to prove and why certain evidence matters. In many cases, there’s one critical issue where if the jury believes X, you win. But if they believe Y, you lose. That’s what we’re calling the XY filter.

For example, in a nursing home case I’m working on, if the jury believes falls are preventable when the nursing home does its job, I’m probably going to win.

But if the jury believes falls just happen, I’m probably going to lose. So, I have to identify and crystallize that issue.

Another example: in a trucking case, if the jury believes the driver is responsible for securing the load, I lose. But if the jury believes the company that loaded the truck is responsible for securing the load, I win. So now I can filter all the evidence in my case through that lens: Does this evidence help establish X, or does it help undermine Y?

Sari de la Motte:
That’s a beautiful way to put it.

Jody Moore:
Thanks.

Sari de la Motte:
And let’s go back to the nursing home case, because that’s your expertise. Let’s say you’re not using the XY filter. What would happen in a case about a fall? What might an attorney listening today recognize in themselves when they think, “Oh, I do that”?

Jody Moore:
Well, again, it’s not that the other evidence would be irrelevant, but I think the focus in a lot of nursing home cases tends to be on the nursing process. So, the rules are centered around whether they assessed, planned based on the assessment, implemented the plan based on the assessment, and evaluated the plan based on whether it was effective.

But notice, in that process, I’m not really talking about whether the fall was preventable. I could spend a lot of time talking about how the nursing process works, but if the jury doesn’t believe falls can be prevented in the first place, none of that matters. So, I need to focus on whether falls are preventable, and then the nursing process supports that idea.

Sari de la Motte:
So planning is part of it—it supports the main argument. But instead of saying, “Here are 10 things I could win on,” you’re saying, “Here’s the thing I’m trying to prove,” and the other stuff fits in around that.

Jody Moore:
Exactly. So, for example, in an opening statement, I might say, "Don’t people just fall? Isn’t it inevitable?" And then I can address that by saying, "Well, no. There’s this thing called the nursing process, and the evidence shows they didn’t follow it properly."

Now I’m putting that information in context in the right place in the case.

Sari de la Motte:
I love it.

Jody Moore:
Yeah.Sari de la Motte:
Do you love it? Because if not, something’s wrong with your brain! I know you’re all wanting more, and we’ll bring you more on how to decide what to put in your case when it comes to documents or witnesses. That’s coming up.
But for now, leave us a review and let us know if you agree that Jody is as brilliant as she is. And if you don’t agree, then don’t bother coming back, because something’s wrong with you!

Jody is freaking brilliant. Before I let you go, let me tell you about a couple of things. Again, we’re opening the crew on September 17th. Go to sariswears.com/play.
And lastly, let me tell you about our November retreat, y’all. We’ve found a 14-bedroom mansion spread across three buildings with multiple bars, a pool with a lazy river, and we’ve hired a private chef. We’re going to talk Resonant Conversations all weekend with Jody, myself, and other CTI coaches.

We’re taking—I think it’s a dozen people max. We opened Early Bird registration on August 21st. At the time of this recording, I’m not sure if we’re full yet, but you can go check it out at sariswears.com/retreat—with dashes between the words. We’ll also put that in the show notes.

If it’s full, get on the list to hear about these things, because we’re doing another one in June. It’s a great way to come and be pampered. Everything’s included—the food, the lodging, the training. It’s going to be off the chain. Is that still a thing people say?

Red Rover, Red Rover, I send you on over, over to the H2H Playground that is. I am beyond thrilled to officially invite you to join us in the H2H Playground. I know, doesn't that sound like fun? This is your chance to be part of the only online working group in the world for plaintiff attorneys to learn and practice trial skills in a safe place while having fun. This, my friend, is where you become the lawyer you were born to be.

Join the waitlist at sariswears.com/play. We open the doors for enrollment on September 17th. Go sign up now to be on the wait list. Olly olly oxen free.

Have you heard? We are finally hosting the long-awaited, highly requested, most frequently asked question in my inbox, introducing Resonant Conversations Retreat, Coaching Skills for Trial Lawyers.

It's time for the retreat you've all been asking for. We've packed this weekend with powerful workshops and activities designed to ignite your purpose and realign your passion. Early bird registrations are now open. So head over to sariswears.com/retreat to register.

We only have 12 spots available, so do not wait!