Sari Swears Podcast: Trial Debrief with Matthew Wilson

Most lawyers would have taken the $400,000…

The plaintiff had healed. No surgery. Relatively modest medical bills. Plenty of risk heading into trial.

But attorney Matthew Wilson saw something bigger.

In this episode of Sari Swears, Matthew breaks down how he turned down the highest offer in the case, took it to verdict, and watched a jury return $1.8 million.

More importantly, he shares what changed his approach in the courtroom.

For years, voir dire was the part of trial that terrified him most. Then he started doing something different—having real conversations with jurors instead of relying on the same old script.

In this episode, you'll hear:

How a "small" injury case became a seven-figure verdict
The overlooked damages that resonated with jurors
What focus groups revealed about suing a city
How authenticity changed Matthew's entire approach to voir dire
The moment he realized jurors don't need perfection—they need a real person

And perhaps the most powerful part of the story isn't the verdict itself. 😉

Love,
Sari

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"Jurors told us afterward that asking those heart-to-heart questions meant a lot to them. More than any joke I could make, the fact that I was willing to ask those questions made me human—and someone they could trust."
matthew wilson

Transcription

Sari de la Motte:

I just love that you did voir dire as it's something that has frightened you in the past. I'm good. I want to acknowledge you for that. So the highest offer was $400,000. You tried it all to verdict and the verdict was?

Matthew Wilson:

$1.8 million.

Sari de la Motte:

Oh, my goodness. You're listening to Sari Swears on the Sari Swears podcast.

Well, welcome everyone to another episode of Sari Swears. I have a special guest today, Matthew Wilson of Princenthal, Wilson-

Matthew Wilson:

May and Wilson.

Sari de la Motte:

... May, and what was the last one?

Matthew Wilson:

Wilson. That's me.

Sari de la Motte:

Okay. Princenthal, May and Wilson.

Matthew Wilson:

Yes, ma'am.

Sari de la Motte:

Okay. I thought I had it right, but I said it a little bit wrong. So welcome to the show, first time on the show.

Matthew Wilson:

Thanks for having me.

Sari de la Motte:

You've been a stalker of mine. No, you're not a stalker of mine. We all know who the true stalker is. We won't name names, but you are one of my current mastermind clients and we're enjoying you so much. And one of the reasons why I wanted you to come on to this particular podcast is because you're out here for your first week of funtivities, I just made up that word, with your five other masterminds. And then you went back and tried a case on that Monday after you were out here and you got a verdict. So we're going to want to talk about that today and kind of what led up to that. But before we get going with that, tell us where you're located and kind of a little bit about your practice out there.

Matthew Wilson:

So we're in Atlanta, Georgia. I'm not sure. Maybe there's another Atlanta, but I'm not aware of it. We do all personal injury. Some of my partners do medical malpractice, but my practice is almost exclusively premises liability. So people getting hurt due to someone else's stupidity on someone else's property, basically.

Sari de la Motte:

Yes. You have a very juicy case you're working on now that we can't talk about because it's active, but very, very fun things that we're doing in that case. And so how long have you been a plaintiff trial lawyer and were you always a plaintiff trial lawyer? Tell us a little bit about your background.

Matthew Wilson:

Started off doing insurance defense. I was terrible at it and it was soul sucking, soul crushing.

Sari de la Motte:

I'm really sad to hear people who are good at it. I don't know if you can have a soul if you want to be good at that.

Matthew Wilson:

Yeah, I was not. And so figured out pretty quickly, I'd say within four years of practice that insurance defense wasn't for me and got into plaintiff's work since 2012 and it's been the, short of my family, the greatest blessing to my life. So I love it.

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah. And I can tell that you love it. So let's talk a little bit about how you came into my world. So what brought you into the H2H world?

Matthew Wilson:

So I heard of your book through my law partner, Adam Princenthal, who was one of your previous masterminds and he got me into it. I read a little bit about the book, but I really enjoyed the podcast. So we have some land out in a little town called Good Hope, Georgia. And I would love getting on the air-condition tractor that we have, bush hogging and-

Sari de la Motte:

Wait, wait, wait, wait. There's such a thing as an air-conditioned tractor that exists?

Matthew Wilson:

Yeah. My stepdad's sister calls it a sissy tractor, but it's got a radio, it's got Bluetooth, it's got air conditioning. It's nice, but it's great therapy. And I would just get in the tractor and listen to your podcast and try to be a better lawyer.

Sari de la Motte:

Listen to your therapist, right?

Matthew Wilson:

That's right. That's right.

Sari de la Motte:

Therapy on the tractor. I think that's the first time we've ever had someone say that they listened to the podcast on a tractor, so that's kind of amazing.

Matthew Wilson:

And it was free.

Sari de la Motte:

Always, always helpful. Yeah. And you came out to do a trial lab that we used to do that was open to the public, so to speak, that we only do for masterminds now. And so that was super fun because your favorite thing when you came out was the devil's advocate. You found that super easy to do and loved it.

Matthew Wilson:

[inaudible 00:04:57].

Sari de la Motte:

Okay. So I adored you the minute that we met and I'm so glad that you are a mastermind now and we get to spend more time together, but let's hear a little bit about this case. Why don't you give us some background about what the case was, who you tried it with, where you tried it, so on and so forth.

Matthew Wilson:

Yeah. So it was a trip and fall in the city of Atlanta on a city sidewalk. So the city's responsible for maintaining their sidewalks and this one did not get maintained. There were some brick pavers that were being pushed up by tree roots that were allowed to exist over probably three or four years. There had been a couple of different complaints to the city about... in fact, two on the same day about it being a trip hazard and the city just ignored it. And my lady was visiting from out of town. She was going in to get some food at the restaurant that's right by this sidewalk. And then she was coming out of the restaurant.

She hit one of the race pavers, I would say this to her face and did say this to her face. She ate shit. Her face hit the sidewalk and unbeknownst to her because she drove herself to the hospital because it was only a few blocks away, she had broken her neck at the C1 vertebrae or vertebrae and they called that the Superman break or the Superman fracture because that's where Christopher Reeves, the '80s Superman broke his neck.

Sari de la Motte:

And yet she was not paralyzed. What was the lasting effect of this? Did she have to have surgery? Tell us a little bit about her recovery.

Matthew Wilson:

Yeah, a lot better than it could have been. Never had surgery, was in a cervical collar for... a hard cervical collar for four to eight months, had some injections, has some lasting pain, some intermittent numbness and tingling, but for the most part was able to go back to work and do her thing, though the psychological trauma from being told that, "Hey, you've broken your neck" is something that will last a lifetime for her.

Sari de la Motte:

Is there any lasting precautions or anything that she can't... She's ever in an accident again, she could be paralyzed or anything like that, just because you mentioned that [inaudible 00:07:50].

Matthew Wilson:

I mean, she's always on edge about getting re-injured. So she travels a lot for work. Her job, and this is one of the reasons in addition to phenomenal lawyering, even more important than that is a phenomenal 10 out of 10 clients, but she teaches golf to kids with disabilities.

Sari de la Motte:

Wow.

Matthew Wilson:

So she tries to get them to get disabled kids to learn the game of golf. So she travels a lot. So anytime she travels, she's got to sit. She refuses to sit on an aisle seat because she's concerned that a bag could shift and fall out of the overhead bin and hit her and re-injure her. When she's landing in an airplane, she pushes her hands down on the seat and lifts herself up to keep from jarring her neck.

Sari de la Motte:

Ruffling.

Matthew Wilson:

Yeah. And then just sort of everywhere she goes, it's the way I analyze things because I do what I do, everywhere you turn, everywhere you step, every place you go is just a fall hazard waiting to happen. So she's analyzing where steps are and how I can get places without having to take stairs and just constantly on high alert. And that was certainly part of her damages that we tried to emphasize at trial.

Sari de la Motte:

Oh, I really haven't heard that a lot in premises liability cases, is that kind of psychological trauma after the fact. I think that's brilliant. Let's talk about some of the issues in the case. What are some of the things that you were either worried about or had to overcome at trial before we talk about what happened at trial?

Matthew Wilson:

So we were worried about the fact that she had previously walked over the area going into this restaurant in Georgia, not to get too legal in a legal podcast, but if you previously traverse or walk past an area, you were put on notice-

Sari de la Motte:

Notice.

Matthew Wilson:

... of whatever the hazard is. So we were concerned about that. We were concerned that it was what they would contend, the city would contend was open and obvious, that she should have seen it. We were concerned that, "Hey, this is a government entity and we can't expect a government entity to be everywhere all the time." And would a jury really hold it against the city that they weren't proactive in inspecting their sidewalks and were in fact relying on the public to be their eyes and ears, "Hey, we'll go out," even though they didn't in this case, "We'll go out and inspect something or repair something if you tell us about it, but we just can't be expected to do that on our own."

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah, be looking for it. What about the fact that she didn't have any surgery or anything in that realm?

Matthew Wilson:

Yeah. And you had asked me earlier who I tried the case with. So I tried the case with my associate, Michelle Rossi, and a much better trial lawyer than Drew Gilliland, who's also in Atlanta. And to his credit, he saw the bigger picture in this case, perhaps bigger than I did. I've always said I'm not a big thinker and that's a little bit of a self-limiting belief that I've had. But he thought, "Hey, this is a broken neck, this is a BFD." But to your concern or thinking we may be worried that, "Hey, she didn't have surgery." I was worried about that. She healed up. The fracture was gone in three months. So this is a case with five figures worth of medical expenses, a healed fracture and a lady that's able to do her job. It's not worth what we got. It took me being convinced of that and certainly the jury was convinced of it.

Sari de la Motte:

Well, let's talk about that. So was there an offer in this case?

Matthew Wilson:

The highest offer we ever got was just before the judge came in to start jury selection and it was $400,000 and we were told it would never be higher than that. And that's the most... I don't know that we had even gotten a six-figure offer before trial.

Sari de la Motte:

And so at that point, I think most of our listeners listened to, you described this case, $400,000, shit, take that, be done with it and move on. I mean, no surgery, she healed up, she could go back to her job. The whole notice issue, let's just get out of this. What convinced you, the three of you, to say no to that offer and continue to try the case?

Matthew Wilson:

Well, having a client who was brave to be able to turn that down.

Sari de la Motte:

Love that.

Matthew Wilson:

I've always been of the philosophy that I don't make guarantees. If my mother asked me what her case was worth, I would give her the same answer that I would give a client. It's whatever the jury will give you. I don't know. But she had been going through this... It had been five and a half years and she'd taken it this far and she was willing to take three more days to try it. And she believed in herself and she believed in us and we certainly believed in her and I think getting to know the client, getting to know through focus groups and doing voir dire that the city of Atlanta and probably any major city across the country is not a sympathetic defendant. And we just gambled as plaintiffs' lawyers are, we're gamblers within reason, of course. We just were willing to take the gamble that they would like her more than they liked the city.

Sari de la Motte:

Say more about what the focus groups were saying about the city not being a likable defendant or cities in general because I think there might be some [inaudible 00:15:34] lawyers listening to her like, "Wait, say more about that."

Matthew Wilson:

They've lived in cities. I mean, we tried the case in Fulton County, which is where the City of Atlanta is and they've reported potholes that didn't get fixed. They know people who have fallen or tripped or reported issues. They know that the city collects all this money, all these tax dollars and not to get political, it didn't matter what their politics were. They did not believe really across the board that the city was a good steward of their tax dollars.

Sari de la Motte:

Oh, great point.

Matthew Wilson:

And I think there is some, I don't want to call it retribution, but some anger there. And that's one of the areas that I definitely explored during jury selection.

Sari de la Motte:

People always ask me, "Sorry, can you take a look at my voir dire? I need help." Well, the best way to get my help, my friend, is to come to my two-day Command the Courtroom masterclass on voir dire. I am there every step of the way with you along with 11 other amazing trial attorneys. And don't just take my word for it. Here's what PI Attorney Ravi had to say.

Meg Koomen:

Thank you so much for attending Command the Courtroom.

Ravi:

Thank you for having me.

Meg Koomen:

I'd love to hear a little bit about what you're taking from this event.

Ravi:

Wow, too much. I mean, so much. It's like a whole new way of thinking about voir dire. I came from the defense side and it's just a lot of being a plaintiff is about shifting your perspective and this exercise has really taught me how to think about the jury in a way that's natural, but also I can totally see how this is going to change the way I try cases basically. And my boss came here a few months ago and he recommended it and so I didn't know what to expect. I knew it was good, but even with those high expectations, it's been even better than what I thought.

Meg Koomen:

Great. I'm glad we could meet your expectations.

Ravi:

Yeah.

Meg Koomen:

What are a couple of techniques or skills that you might use in your next case?

Ravi:

So I think taking up space in front of the jury and voir dire, using physicality as a way to kind of bring the jury together and make them feel like they're part of something. So instead of using voir dire as a way just to find the biased jurors, but actually bringing them together and making them all agree on stuff, that's a shift in perspective for me. So starting with these general principles that most people will agree with and getting all the jurors to say it out loud, like, "Yeah, that's a basic common sense thing." I think that's a really effective tool. You're almost like getting them on your side before you even do opening statements. So that's a technique I'll definitely try to use.

Meg Koomen:

Yeah. That's amazing. Is there anything else you want to add about your experience here?

Ravi:

No, I mean, everything's been top class. You guys have been so welcoming and you make it, even though it's kind of intimidating to learn new skills, the way you guys get us standing up and active on our feet, learning things, I think it's been great. So I recommend it to anybody who's considering it for sure.

Meg Koomen:

That's great. Yeah. We want you to have fun.

Ravi:

Yeah, it's been fun.

Sari de la Motte:

Now seats are limited. These are small group, high impact courtroom sessions, not an auditorium full of board attorneys and dull lectures. If you want to change the way you go to trial and turn your practice into progress, visit sariswears.com/masterclass to register for a 2026 class today. That's sariswears.com/masterclass.

Yeah, because I think you're right in that nobody loves to pay taxes, but we particularly don't love paying taxes and then having our money not do the things that we're supposedly paying taxes for. So let's talk about jury selection and any of the H2H things that you used. Were you able to do a "H2H voir dire"?

Matthew Wilson:

I was, but not without objections and trying to pivot as best I could. So I've had several traumatic experiences in voir dire, but one experience many, many years ago, I was almost put in contempt for asking, I wouldn't say improper questions, but they weren't so much questions as they were an attempt to get the jury to warm up to me a little bit and I was doing it the wrong way. So regardless, voir dire has always scared me.

And then a few years ago doing voir dire a totally different way, asking a question about something that had to do with the car wreck at the time and a person raising their hand and saying, "I don't really have any feelings against car wrecks per se, but I haven't had a good feeling about you since the moment I walked in." And that'll really stick with you. If you weren't scared of doing voir dire before that, you really are not just scared of doing voir dire, but your entire persona, your personality, what slime must I be oozing for a person and a prospective juror to feel that way? So I went off on that tangent and I apologize for forgetting-

Sari de la Motte:

No, I think this is important.

Matthew Wilson:

... what your question was

Sari de la Motte:

Well, tell me how that has changed or morphed since H2H?

Matthew Wilson:

Yeah. So through H2H, of course you want to let your prospective jurors know what they're in for, know what's coming, know what they can expect. Expectations are very important. So one of the ways I have been able to do that is to let prospective jurors know that I can't talk about the evidence even though I really want to. And I may get close to talking about the evidence. I may sort of get on that line or very close to it and when I do, they're going to object-

Sari de la Motte:

I love this.

Matthew Wilson:

... and the judge is going to make a ruling and then we'll come back and talk to you and I'll either be able to keep going or I won't. And that happened. I told the jury that they could expect an objection and the judge was going to make a determination as to what I could get into. And when that happened, man, what a relief for me because it wasn't some screw up that I had done. I told them this was coming and sure enough it did and it happened, it wasn't just the first time. It didn't just happen once.

Sari de la Motte:

Well, I just want to pause there for a minute because what we're talking about here is how you have put your own spin on the designed alliance. And I think this is brilliant is that one of the things we say when we're designing with jurors, "Hey, I want you to have a say in this. I'd like to hear whether you want to be here or not, but there's a couple things that I can't do. One is guarantee," whether they go home or not. And the second one is, "I can't really talk about the evidence." And what I love about what you've done with that second caveat, it's really the first one we talk about actually, is to design further with them that, "If I somehow even get close to that line that this is what's going to happen." And so that when it does happen, it makes you seem credible and honest and smart versus, "Uh-oh, I did something wrong and I got in trouble for it." And I just think it's brilliant. What were the types of things? Were they objections from the other side or from the judge or both?

Matthew Wilson:

The other side really, and it had something to do with what's important about doing certain things, what's important about maintaining sidewalks, what can happen if they don't do that? And that was really probably what drew the biggest objection. It's like, "Oh, well, they're sort of getting into the golden rule asking the jurors to put themselves in the position of the plaintiff." And I'm like, "Well, first of all, it's jury selection. I can get into voir dire and this goes into foreseeability, which is something that the jury is going to have to decide anyway." So the objection wasn't sustained necessarily, but it was sort of like, "Okay,"-

Sari de la Motte:

Be careful.

Matthew Wilson:

... "speed it up," right?

Sari de la Motte:

Yeah. Lovely, but it wasn't sustained. Yay. I mean, that's what people want to say when they do get objections during voir dire, it's mostly just cover for objection, Your Honor. This is working basically and we don't know what else to do, but object. Yeah.

Matthew Wilson:

Yeah. I always look at it as we've never seen this before, so it must be wrong.

Sari de la Motte:

Exactly, exactly.

Matthew Wilson:

And I don't know if you still wanted me to talk about voir dire a little bit or something else that I add or that I include in my voir dire, which I think is important. So I am self-deprecating to a fault. You know that just from conversations we've had and I wear hearing aids and I tell the jurors that I wear hearing aids. I pull them out of my ears and I show that I have them and not everybody's going to have hearing aids, but there are things that you can do to make yourself a human being.

Sari de la Motte:

And you have to tell them the line that you use because my daughter still loves the line.

Matthew Wilson:

I say something to the effect of, "There's three things I got to tell you. Number one, my hearing stinks, my wife says one thing, I hear another. You may say with reasonable doubt, but I'll hear rainbow trout. So my hearing's just a little unpredictable. So if you say something and I don't understand you or I misquote you, it's not that I'm doing on purpose, doing it on purpose, it's just that I can't hear you. So bear with me."

Sari de la Motte:

I love it. And it does make you super human. Well, super human, like superhuman as well, but it feels like, especially then, thanks for sharing your previous experiences with voir dire, that this felt different doing voir dire. Less scary maybe? I don't know. Tell me about that.

Matthew Wilson:

Yeah, I guess I was just okay. I accepted the fact that if it were clunky or if I misspoke or if I hit a dead end that it would be okay. Not that I failed, but if I did in a certain area or if it didn't go somewhere where I wanted it to, it was okay. May I give you an example?

Sari de la Motte:

Yes.

Matthew Wilson:

So in the H2H method, one of the areas we discuss or talk to the jurors about damages is price versus value, right? And Sari can explain that way better than I can, but you essentially talk about things that come with a price tag like medical bills, lost wages, things like that and things that don't come with a price tag but have value and getting... First of all, and jurors told us this after the fact, asking people subsurface heart-to-heart questions while uncomfortable for many meant a lot to the people, not only that spoke up, but the fact that I as the lawyer was willing to ask those questions, that perhaps more than any stupid joke I would make about hearing aids made me human and a person that they could trust and hopefully like, although that's not everything, but we all want to be liked. We certainly don't want to be hated or looked at negatively by the jury.

Sari de la Motte:

So just to give a little context, this is the place where before you describe how they might go about putting a price on things that don't come with a price tag that have value, we asked the jurors, "Can you tell me something in your life that has value that doesn't come with a price tag?" So you're talking about that conversation?

Matthew Wilson:

Yes, ma'am. And one of the ladies said music. She values music. It's very important to her. And I'm like, "This is perfect. I'm going to be able to really get into the heart of the issue with this nice young lady." And I was like, "Well, what's your favorite kind of music?" And if she had said anything, I would've been able to have a conversation with her and she said, "K-pop." Well, I don't know jack-shit about K-pop. I don't know a K-pop band. I know that there's a K-pop Demon Hunters. I think that's a movie, but I'm not certain. Regardless, I had nowhere to go with that and told her, "Lady, I don't know anything about that." Not that there's nothing I can do with it, but I hit a dead end. But at least I was honest with her and let her know that, "Hey, that's awesome." And then you just sort of have to pivot and move on and talk to somebody else.

Sari de la Motte:

And it still worked as they came and told you after the fact.

Matthew Wilson:

It does.

Sari de la Motte:

Did you do opening?

Matthew Wilson:

I did not do opening. I did it directly. I did jury selection and direct and it wasn't a very long trial. We had jury selection, direct to the client and a couple of before and after witnesses and then Michelle did and then Drew did both opening and closing.

Sari de la Motte:

I just love that you did voir dire as it's something that has frightened you in the past. I'm good. I want to acknowledge you for that.

Matthew Wilson:

Thank you.

Sari de la Motte:

So the highest offer was $400,000. You tried it all to verdict and the verdict was?

Matthew Wilson:

$1.8 million.

Sari de la Motte:

Oh my goodness. What is that? Nearly... Wait, I can't do math. That's over four times, right?

Matthew Wilson:

I think it's four and a half, right?

Sari de la Motte:

Four. Yeah. Well, four times.

Matthew Wilson:

Four times. Four plus. Yeah. Yeah.

Sari de la Motte:

Okay. We're not doing our math skills very well.

Matthew Wilson:

No.

Sari de la Motte:

No. That's incredible. And there was more though, right? Wasn't there something else that was super cool about the verdict?

Matthew Wilson:

Yeah. So because the city admitted liability, it was a damages only trial, the jury did not get to hear any of the bad facts. They didn't get to hear about the fact that they knew about it for four years before the incident and didn't do anything or that there had been prior falls or prior calls to the city. They heard none of that. All they heard was that they're responsible and then this lady got hurt and what are her damages? But we had an attorney's fees claim for bad faith. Basically if the underlying... Again, too legal, but the underlying transaction, if that is what they call bad faith and in this case, having actual knowledge of a problem and not fixing it, the jury was going to get to hear about that. So we were set to try the second phase of just the attorney's fees where they were going to hear about all the bad facts and the next morning before the jury even came in to hear any of the evidence or openings or whatever they settled for an undisclosed additional amount of money in exchange-

Sari de la Motte:

Wonderful.

Matthew Wilson:

... for [inaudible 00:34:08] that appeal. Yeah.

Sari de la Motte:

Fantastic result. Congratulations. What was it like to hear the verdict when it came down?

Matthew Wilson:

Well, I'd never heard... I've settled cases for much more money, but I've never... it was my highest verdict. And what I'll remember is not the number, but looking over to my left and seeing my client's face and the tears that she had rolling down her cheek. So that's what it felt like.

Sari de la Motte:

Bless you and bless her.

Matthew Wilson:

The best parts of this job.

Sari de la Motte:

And I mean that in a good way. You southerners are like, "Well, bless," which is like, "Fuck you."

Matthew Wilson:

Yeah. Well, when I say bless your heart, I mean it. I don't mean it in a bad way.

Sari de la Motte:

I kind of love how sneaky that is, but I mean that in a great way. As we wrap up today, what advice would you give anybody listening who may have been in the same position that you were in previous years of being freaked out about voir dire?

Matthew Wilson:

You've just got to be okay being you. You're just up there having a conversation. And even though it is a very sterile conversation at times, it can be really beautiful if you're willing to take the risk of being uncomfortable. Anybody can get up there and ask, "Hey, do you know anybody in the courtroom? Or have you ever been in the insurance business?"

Sari de la Motte:

What bumper stickers are on your car?

Matthew Wilson:

Right. Or read some outline that's been passed down from lawyer to lawyer to lawyer over the many years. Just know your case, know what you need, know who you need and who is best for you. There's a lot of work on that on the front end, but be willing to explore those things that you know you need and take the risk to go get.

Sari de la Motte:

I love it. Beautiful. You are literally a sight to behold in front of a jury. You are magic. I can't even imagine a juror saying what they said to you, seeing you now. It's literally one of the most fun things. I mean, if people are like, "Do you want to watch this movie or do you want to watch Matthew in front of a jury?" I'd pick the latter every single time. It's so fun to watch you in front of a jury. So congratulations on your win again. Give Michelle and Drew my congratulations as well.

Matthew Wilson:

Yes, ma'am.

Sari de la Motte:

And I just love the fact that we get to spend this whole year together and that we got to do this as part of our year together. Very, very fun. Well, if you want to learn more about how you can do voir dire better, go to sariswears.com and check out all the resources that we have there for you. Come out to Command the Courtroom. That would be one great way to learn. But we will talk to everybody again next week. Thanks everybody.

Thank you for listening to the very end of this episode, A+. I'm going to ask you to subscribe to the podcast, whether you're one of the weirdos that like to watch it on YouTube or you just listen, make sure you hit that subscribe button. It helps the podcast grow and let other people find me, y'all, but don't stop there. Be sure to leave me a five-star review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. We want this podcast to reach as many ears and eyes as possible. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next time. Bye-bye everybody.